The disunited states

Townhall.com ^ | August 15, 2002 | Cal Thomas

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Most scholars consider Japan a part of Western Civilization because of its post war modernization. If that is the case the Asian Tigers should be considered a part of Western Civilization as should parts of coastal China like Shanghai, Hong Kong and Guangzhou.

[Phillip Augustus]

I would have to say, with all due respect, that you are wrong on several counts.

First, Muscovy was considered Asian by Western Europeans at the time...what time? Are you referring to the time when Western Europeans thought the East Indies could be reached by sailing across the Atlantic, with nothing in between? Given the geographical knowledge of the world at the time, Russia by way of comparision to Western Europe could indeed be considered Asian and/or exotic but keep in mind that for much of Europe's history, there were only 3 continents even known.

You will have to excuse me as I will respond in greater detail in a day or so.

[rmlew]

1. Between 1935 and 1945, the US actually allowed fewer Jews to enter than the quotas would dictate. (My godfather worked for the US state dept in France. They knew what was going on but didn't want to even follow the rules, much less bend them. He was fired for leaking evidence of the Holocaust to the NY Times, which published it on page 26.) The problems werenet' the quotas but people who preffered Jews die than live near them. Also, the US could have temporarily had more refugees stay in Cuba than the quotas.
2. I'm fine with simply reducing immigration rates across the board. I would note that the 1965 law discriminated against Europeans.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

At the time which was after Columbus sailed the Ocean blue, Western Europe considered Muscovy the East because for many years it had been under the yoke of the Mongolian Golden Horde. But what about the fact that many Russians themselves think that they are not Western? BTW I could tell my post got you thinking. :)

[Phillip Augustus]

Japan is not part of Western Civilization. That is not a slur on Japan at all. Their culture and civilization is very admirable, but distinctly different than that of the West. Their political structure and ecomonic systems are undoubtedly Western in nature, but that does not mean that Japan as a whole is Western in nature.

From your perspective, which you state to be a neo-conservative perspective, I understand your view. I don't disrespect that viewpoint, but I disagree with your initial perspective. Western Civilization is about far more than a capitalist economy and democracy.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

It was a damn shame let me tell you that. But I support the 1965 bill because it allowed my East Asian family to immigrate to the U.S. It allowed my parents and some relatives to prosper somewhat and make something of ourselves. And my cousins and I, our generation have all either graduated college or are in college now. I support the 1965 repeal of National Origins Quotas because it allowed so many good, decent hardworking people to come. And how does the bill discriminate against Europeans? Because it allows more Asians and Hispanics to come here? Well immigration used to be exclusively for Europeans, so yes there will be fewer Europeans as a percentage coming in now that our laws no longer discriminate against non-whites.

[rmlew]

Really I just don't believe in all this doom and gloom crap. Do we have problems? Duh. Have we had problems since the minute we signed the Declaration? Yup. Have we over come them all? So far. Will we eventually screw the pooch? Damn straight. Do I think that's going to happen any time soon? Nope. Do I think it will be caused by some Mexican invasion? Hell no.
Let me make the case.
1. For a variety of reasons including PC, we have many cultural problems that are dividing this country. It is not an accident that Girtrude Himmelfarb published a book entitled "One Nation, Two Cultures."
2. It is in the interest of maintaining the nation that we resolve the culture war in victory.
3. Immigrants come in with their own cultures, introducing futher cultural clashes.
4. Moreover because of our problems, we are less able to assimilate immigrants than we were 100 years ago. (Can you imagine a PROGRESSIVE president saying today that there is no space for hyphenated Americans?)
5. Thus immigration strains us, just when we need our resources for victory and renewal.
I could argue that people of non-Western cultures are harder to assimilate than those with a British derived or at least European culture.
I could also note that the clash of nationalisms, loyalties, and history makes Mexican immigration especially difficult.

You need to recheck your numbers. The Latin vote was pretty evenly split.
Not even close. Bush won the Hispanic vote only in one state, FL. He came close to breaking even in Texas. Everywhere else, he was crushed. http://www.vdare.com/pb/election.htm
You might also be interested in this article. http://www.vdare.com/awall/mexicans.htm

Given how many European immigrants stay on the east coast, and how solidly the east coast goes to the Dems I don't think they're helping us out much.
I don't have the figures for the 200 election but regarding Mayoral races, white immigrant neighborhoods went for Giulliani Bloomberg, while non-white immigrant neighboorhoods went Democrat 4 times in a row.

Of course, I would argue that regardless of race, all immigrants who are not refugees froim Communist countries are natural Democrats for the first few generations.

Of course the real punchline is that it's perfectly legal to be a leftist in this country. If we start basing immigrant policy on how we think they're gonna vote we'll get serious fuqed next time the Dems are in charge. And we won't be able to cry foul because we did it first.
No, the Democrats did it first in 1965. Kennedy sponsored the immigration act and Humphry lied about its results.

Again I have yet to see where the hispanics/ third worlders/ Mexican or whatever the hell you want to call them today are assimilating AT ALL differently than the European immigration boom from the late 19th and early 20th century. You keep insisting it, but you haven't proven it, and I ain't buying it.
For the moment, let me assume that you are correct that third-world immigration today is little different than that 100 years ago. Gues what, thos immigrants voted for Progressive Republicans and Democrats. They were the backbone of the northern FDR coalituion. It took 2 generations to assimilate them and have them vote like other Americans. So regardless of who is right about race, iun the near term, we are importing Democrat votes.

What's "holding a die"?
A die in is when protester pretend to have been killed. They also said that with the BBQ, we were symbolically roasting their ancestors. i told them that people are treif and that I am not an Aztec. They did not find the quip amusing and campus security was called.

And we don't get Columbus Day BBQ's because it's not a holiday because the black community talked us into trading it for MLK Day so we could get a Super Bowl.
You do understand the importance of national unification holidays like Columbus day ?

I don't see the Mexicans as either second class (hoo boy there's a racist statement if I've ever seen one) or racially disaffected.
I called Mexicans a disaffected class, like blacks. I never said second. I suppose no one has yelled at you, "(Yanqui/Gringo/Blanco/Anglo) this is no longer your country."

All I know is the facts. And the facts are a big group has thrown its support to Simon. What effect it's gonna have, who knows. But it does show that your blanket statement is incorrect.
Bush had support of some groups. He lost the Hispanic vote about 35-62%.

Hey, America has had a good influence on the world. Of course on the other hand we also gave the world Brittney Spears.
Her music sucks (although great remake of Joan Jett's "I love Rock and Roll!"), but she is damn easy on the eyes.

. And of course just because we went away doesn't mean our positive influence would end. Looking forward, what are the FUTURE contributions that would be lost if America went away? I do love this country, but I'm not stupid. The world goes on.
AS I said, if the US fails, I believe that the ideals of our founding will be discredited. The world will also have lost the only country to liberate and rebuild its enemies.

As free as us the last 50 years or just any old 50 years? The last 50 years nobody. Any old 50 years, The Roman Republic is good, the Athenian Republic kicked butt.
Athens had more slavery and Rome enslaved whole countries, even as a Republic.

Western Europe wasn't "lost". It was right there. It went through some changes, mostly for the worst, but they came out the other side in pretty good shape. And the Eastern Empire sucked.
1. It took 1000 years for Western Europe to be rebuilt. That sucks.
2. Byzantium was better than Visigoth Hispania.

Of course by the time it became the Roman Empire the experiment we're repeating was already over.
One of the reasons for the fall of the Republic was the expansion and introduction of foreign cultures.

Of course you forget why the Germans invaded also. They invaded because they hated Rome, they'd always hated Rome, and Rome wouldn't leave them the hell alone. Rome finally conquered them, and when Rome got weak they struck back. But again, by that point Rome was an Empire and not a Republic. The Republic was dead.
The Germans pretty much left Rome alone for 240 years after they destroyed the 17th 18th and 19th Legions in the battle of the Teutoburg Forest. In the 4th century, the Romans tried Romanizing the Germans. All they did was make the Goths want to take over Rome.

We have a policy towards Fox? All I've seen is that him and GW like to hang out. Other than letting Fox give his speeches I haven't seen a policy. I see no problem with treating him as a friend, you get to keep a better eye on friends.

When the PAN candidate Fox defeater the PRI oligarchs after 70 years, I rejoiced. However, I have seen little change.

Again, I ain't buying what your selling. You have YET to show that Mexican immigrants are behaving at all differently from any other group of immigrants in history. Since the previous groups weren't a problem there is no impricial evidence that the Mexicans will be a problem. Show how they're different and there's something to discuss. Until then it's just racist ranting against a people that have done nothing to deserve your ire.
1. Prior immigrants were a problem for generations.
2. Immigrants from a neighboring country are a big difference from those across the ocean. Mexico found this out at San Jacinto. Why should we ignore our shared history?

[rmlew]

The 1965 act reduced the number of Europeans.
I would also note that my father came to the US only because only because of the bill.

[Poohbah]

Hey, if you're acting like a rude and obnoxious jackass in public, expect to get treated like one.

[Poohbah]

The thing you mentioned about babbling is so true. I have had to put up with it for years now and I really hate to work in my office.

Then find another job.

[ecomcon]

Don't you find it more than a little telling, that a non American working in this country, who is not a native english speaker, finds multi-culti languauge forms to be a distraction and a problem in the workplace, but none of the Politically Corrected "Americans" do.

But that sure was a snappy one liner. Real sarcastic. Would it be acceptable to you for him to say that to his co workers?

"Don't like english? Then find another job".

[Poohbah]

Don't you find it more than a little telling, that a non American working in this country, who is not a native english speaker, finds multi-culti languauge forms to be a distraction and a problem in the workplace, but none of the Politically Corrected "Americans" do.

If he's that annoyed about it, there is absolutely nothing stopping him from getting another job. His employer is apparently not annoyed with the situation, and the employer's opinion is what counts, not Jamten's.

But that sure was a snappy one liner. Real sarcastic. Would it be acceptable to you for him to say that to his co workers?

"Don't like english? Then find another job".

Jamten was the one whining, not his co-workers. If his co-workers started whining about Jamten, I'd say the same thing.

[discostu]

Great those are all real nice. But again they cross the immigrant boundries. They're universal problems we have with EVERY immigrant group. I've said over and over I wouldn't mind slowing or even temporarily halting ALL immigration. What I won't support is picking on the Mexicans because some people are paranoid freaks.

Nice numbers. How do they compare with your own group the Jews? They clearly don't vote as leftist as blacks. Again Mexicans are NOT posing a UNIQUE problem, and trherefore there's no reason to single them out.

Cute. But that really doesn't sound much different than the protest the Indians down here do. I don't know if any faked their own death recently. I don't go to the protests I just see them on TV. Since Columbus Day isn't even a holiday here without the protests I'd never find out it was Columbus Day (IMHO it's much ado about nothing, not like Columbus ever actually LANDED in America, Columbus discovered the Bahamas). One way or the other your Mexicans still don't hold a candle to our blacks as far as "ruining" Columbus Day goes.

I understand the importance of national unification holidays. I don't think Columbus Day is one. It's just a day off to me, one I never had because AZ had gotten rid of it before I got the kind of job where you get those days of. The national unification holidays are Memorial Day, Independance Day and Armestice Day (when we had the individual president's birthdays off they were good, the current Presidents' Day is nothing more than a white sale at K-Mart). Columbus Day is a day celebrating a guy who didn't land in America proper and wasn't the first European here anyway. As a matter of fact he didn't even prove the world was round because people didn't think it was flat. Pretty much everything you were told in grade shoool about Columbus (and oddly enough all the stuff the Indians down here protest, which is why I laugh at them) is BS.

OK you're right on the phrasing, I missed parsed the 2nd class of citizen thing, apologies. Nope none of the immigrants I regularly run into (I've worked with them and for them, and because of my serious salsa addiction eat their food all the time) has ever given any indication of any ofrm of support for La Reconquista. I've talked to a few of them about it and they all think it's total BS. A lot of the stuff I've said about how they don't respect the Mexican government and would immigrate again if it took over here is straight from these conversations, including the stuff about who's in La Raza and MECHA. That's why I'm not buying any of this stuff, I've sat down and talked to the people that are suposedly taking the country away and they think this stuff is stupid.

Posters of Britney are nice. I had to wonder when she did that Joan Jett cover (woohoo, dig Joan Jett, that's my kind of rock and roll woman) if Brittney had ever actually SEEN a jukebox, let's not even get into if she understands what rock and roll is (and someday the dime will be gone, sadly that song is not aging well).

35% is still better than the GOP gets with most of the minorities (or semi-minorities), yours and mine (European Catholic) included.

OK I can see that, but maybe the ideals of the founders wouldn't get trashed. Communism couldn't last a whole century in Russia and people still dig it. Roman and Greecian slavery weren't like what we had here. It was more like (to steal a term from the commies) the wage slavery we supposedly had here. Their slaves earned money and could eventually buy their freedom, it was a stepping stone to full citizenship which many chose not to go for because they didn't care to take that next step.

No. The Republic fell because of the coroption of the senate. That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with immigration into Rome. Roman immigration was very complex and layered, the important thing to know is that most immigrants weren't citizens right away and many never became citizens. Being as they weren't citizens they had no voice in the government until (unless) they earned their citizenship. Sorry i've spent a fair time studying Rome and your the first with this theory that I've seen. The whole Roman- German thing is too complex to get into. Suffice that there was a lot of hatred and Rome would have been better off just ignoring them, but they didn't and in the end they got screwed.

Change doesn't happen right away. You're starting to sound like the people bitching about Bush. You can't just undo 70 years of progressing socialism right after being sworn into office. Niether nation gives the president imperial powers or a magic wand. They've got to work within the system and that's going to take time. If we're lucky and manage to keep getting conservatives in power we'll see some serious change before we die. If we're lucky.

Again, I have yet to see any significant way where Mexican immigration is different. You keep insisting it, but you haven't proven it. Without that I ain't buying that they should be singled out.

[ecomcon]

Apparently, my points were lost on you. You answered neither of my two questions.

If he's that annoyed about it, there is absolutely nothing stopping him from getting another job.
Who said someone was stopping him from getting another job? Red herring.

His employer is apparently not annoyed with the situation, and the employer's opinion is what counts, not Jamten's.
This is a speculation and an assertion, and again doesn't address my question.

Jamten was the one whining, not his co-workers. If his co-workers started whining about Jamten, I'd say the same thing.
It doesn't matter who you think is whining, My question was would it be acceptable for Jamten (or, more to the point, his employer) to say "Find another job"?

[discostu]

i ain't getting it because there's nothing to get. You guys are wrong. The Mexicans aren't destroying or trying to take over the country.

Thanks for the ping though.

[Poohbah]

Apparently, my points were lost on you. You answered neither of my two questions.

Neither of your questions, as written, were relevant--an

If he's that annoyed about it, there is absolutely nothing stopping him from getting another job.

Who said someone was stopping him from getting another job? Red herring.

I'm just responding to his statement that he hates his work. I cannot engage in mind-reading to discern what he really meant; I am forced to merely read his writings and apply the rules of standard written English.

His employer is apparently not annoyed with the situation, and the employer's opinion is what counts, not Jamten's.

This is a speculation and an assertion, and again doesn't address my question.

It is a logical inference based on the statements made by Jamten. The employees are apparently keeping their job; this indicates that the employer is satisfied with their performance.

A logical inference can be made that your linguistic skills could use some serious improvement, based on your apparent inability to differentiate between the concepts of "speculation," "assertion," and "logical inference."

Jamten was the one whining, not his co-workers. If his co-workers started whining about Jamten, I'd say the same thing.

It doesn't matter who you think is whining, My question was would it be acceptable for Jamten (or, more to the point, his employer) to say "Find another job"?

If the employer is not satisfied with the language skills of his employees (or any other aspect of their job performance), he is perfectly right to terminate their employment and seek employment elsewhere. It wouldn't be Jamten's place to do that unless he has been granted the authority to do so.

[ecomcon]

The most obvious way that Mexico is different, is that they share a border with us. This makes it far easier to emmigrate. When it is easy to do something, the motivation required to accomplish that thing is not very profound. Hence, most Mexican immigrants come here to work. They want to make more money. I'm not saying there is any thing wrong with that, per se. If the motivation was more noble, there would be far less dollars flowing out of the U.S. and into Mexico via western Union. And there would be a lot more assimilation.

The second way that Mexico is different is that we have defeated them in war, and now possess what they used to possess, by purchase, treaty, and other legal means. The reason that fact is important to this discussion, is that if Mexican education and political propaganda teaches that the southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico, then that is what the immigrant believes in his heart. From there springs the animus and eventual disrespect for our immigration laws, and by extension, our culture and our country.

[ecomcon]

A logical inference can be made that your linguistic skills could use some serious improvement, based on your apparent inability to differentiate between the concepts of "speculation," "assertion," and "logical inference."

The great and powerful Poohbah has spoken! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! The great and powerful Poohbah has spoken!

A logical inference is a conclusion that derives from a speculation or an assertion or other unconfirmed information and is not factual. It is an inference.

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

Hey (lightbulb goes on over head)...I just figured out your name, rented the movie this past weekend. Or at least rented a movie which featured your name.

[ecomcon]

That's the one. :^)