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The disunited states
Townhall.com ^ | August 15, 2002 | Cal Thomas

Posted on 08/15/2002 11:23:35 AM PDT by gubamyster

August 15, 2002

As more information from the 2000 Census is released, it's increasingly clear that this is not our parents' country. Ethically, it stopped being their country in the 1960s. Ethnically, it now resembles not a united nation, but a United Nations, with divisions along class, racial, religious, language and ideological lines. Our national motto, E pluribus unum ("out of many, one,") no longer applies.

Census figures show that one out of every nine residents is now foreign-born. The response from politicians? Many are signing up for Spanish lessons. They should be telling immigrants to sign up for English lessons.

Yes, we are a nation of immigrants. There is a difference, however, between the way immigrants were treated a century ago during the Great Wave, and how they are treated today.

Then, they were expected to become part of America, which included speaking our language, knowing our history and respecting our traditions. Now, they are allowed -- indeed, encouraged -- to remain who they are and not bother to learn English or care about American history. Then, we sought to make Americans of immigrants. Today, we hyphenate their citizenship and tell them they may continue to bear allegiance to other countries and causes.

Here are only a few examples of how bad the situation has become: The safety video on the Delta Shuttle between Washington and New York is delivered in both Spanish and English; this November, Denver and several other Colorado counties designated as bilingual counties must print election ballots in English and Spanish; the Department of Justice has ordered Harris County, Texas (which encompasses Houston) to start providing ballots and voting materials in Vietnamese.

Part of the reason for this forming of a less perfect union is that we are no longer sure of ourselves. Embarrassed by our success and riches, we think we're doing the world a favor by engaging in self-flagellation, refusing to repeat for the next generation what was handed to us by the previous one.

A Texas schoolteacher wrote to express his frustration:

"We were raised with 'ultimate consequences' which would dictate punishment when there was no discipline ('When your father gets home...,' 'Your mother wouldn't approve of this...')," he noted. "Now, it's a question of how people can beat the law, rather than uphold it." This especially applies to those immigrants who have seen that if they can get to America illegally, their chances are good of winning amnesty and remaining in this country.

King Solomon warned: "Where there is no vision, the people cast off restraint" (Proverbs 29:18). The casting off of restraint is what characterizes us now, from corporate boardrooms to private bedrooms. If immigrants know only how to get here and do not learn what made America so attractive to them, they will live by their own standards, just as we who were born here are doing in increasing numbers, further undermining our strength and cohesiveness.

In his 1992 book, "The Tyranny of Change: America in the Progressive Era: 1890-1920," John Whiteclay Chambers wrote of the great immigration wave of a century ago, noting that a majority of arrivals in this country never intended to stay. Many hoped that "after a few years of work, they could save enough money to return home to an improved position for themselves and their families."

"Although the majority of new immigrants permanently settled in America, a significant number left (with a departure rate of 35 percent for Croatians, Poles, Serbs and Slovenes; 40 percent for Greeks; and more than 50 percent for Hungarians, Slovaks and Italians; the rate among Asian immigrants was much higher, more than two-thirds)," Chambers wrote. Today the departure rate is only about 15 percent and anyone who gets here, even illegally, can now expect his or relatives to legally follow.

Many of those who stayed a century ago had poor skills and became part of large ghettos in major urban areas, where poverty continues to drain human and financial resources. The 1990 Census indicated that ethnic enclaves were huge and growing. In the city of Miami today, about half of the population speaks English poorly or not at all, new census figures show, and 74 percent of residents speak a language other than English at home.

A source for additional facts about how we have failed to assimilate immigrants can be found on the Web page of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (www.fairus.org/).

It would help if we would re-discover what once was considered "self-evident" truths about America, disdaining relativity. If we can't do that for those already here, we will be of no use to current and future immigrants and cannot sustain ourselves as the United States.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: donutwatch; immigration
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To: Ohioan
Nope. I haven't said anything bad about wanting to hang with your own kind. I've pointed out the tendancy many times on this thread with no aspersions. What I'm against is deciding group X is unworthy of becoming Americas because of where they were born. I find it especially peculiar that so many of the people against Hispanic immigration use their tendancy to act like everybody else and hang with their own kind as a reason that they're a problem. Apparently it's OK for black, Italians, Chinese and Irish to form their own little enclaves but if the Mexicans do it that's bad.

Haven't flown over fly over country lately have you? Some regions of the country are over crowded. The country as a whole isn't. if people weren't so eager to crowd in on each other we could have a nice even very low dispersment of people in this country. There's only 280 million of us, I think that equates to nearly 1 sq mile per person or something rediculous like that. Definitely NOT over crowded.

There was something wrong with Rome becoming Imperial, that's what got the ball rolling that lead to Romes destruction. It stopped being Rome which was a really great place for the time and started being an obnoxious empire that stripped it's people of essential liberties. You're right it was different, but it was different because of the way the government destroyed the essense of the Roman Republic in a constant quest for more money and power. It wasn't different because of the citizenry. Rome itself was just a city, I'd be surprised if even 10% of the ending population was of true Roman stock. But again getting Roman citizenship (the only way to affect their government) was not easy. By no means did they have pell mell immigration. The Roman government screwed things up. The senate saw that they were in charge of the most powerful nation on earth and wanted to be the most powerful man in that nation. This started the infighting and led to the transformation to Empire and screwed the whole pootch up. It's all very well explained in The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

I don't have a prejudice against our 4 legged friends... well I don't like horses, but I understand their importance and so long as I don't have to ride one I don't care (it's really the riding I don't like, and the smell, other than that their fine beasts). Yes we have hereditary traits. My point was that those traits are such a minor part of the whole of a person (or dog or horse) as to be often pointless.

If our culture is so cool it will survive. If it doesn't it wasn't that cool. Our culture has always been made up of bits and pieces. And frankly the very concept of "American culture" is a misnomer. I've lived in LA, Chicago, Tucson and Alamagordo, and visited many others; they all had very distinct and obvious culutural differences. Different sizes of city have certain differences in culture, different areas of the country have differences in culture. There are a few constants, but even those aren't as constant as many think. Even the language varies heavily from area to area.
181 posted on 08/16/2002 4:27:56 PM PDT by discostu
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To: brightx
The main difference are the numbers (much higher numbers, though as a percentage of the whole population smaller), and the distribution (there's a lot less diversity to the current immigration boom). But the behavior of the group, and resistance to it, is following the tried and true pattern.
182 posted on 08/16/2002 4:30:46 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Twodees
LOL. I guess you're one of those heads-in-the-sand people who think racism is a myth and racists are just a bogey raised by liberals to keep the white man down ;)

Well, here's a bit of reality - even though they're a minority, racists do exist. And yes, from time to time, people like myself do run into them.

183 posted on 08/16/2002 4:37:25 PM PDT by AM2000
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To: Phillip Augustus
Let's see, potato famine, bunch of wars, revolutions, economic collapses all over the place, massive polution (ever read about London's black snows in the 19th century, there was so much soot in the air it condensed and fell to the ground). Europe was seriously hosed. Especially in the 1880 to 1924 period that marks the big immigration boom.
184 posted on 08/16/2002 4:37:29 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Ohioan
I'm not taking a position on immigration in general. My problem is with a form of limiting immigration based on the "worthiness" of the nation the person is leaving. I'm all for limiting immigration, even turning it off for a while, but it's gotta be smart, not based on some rediculous paranoia of the brown people.
185 posted on 08/16/2002 4:43:04 PM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu
And, still producing the greatest literature, poetry, architecture, music, art, etc, etc, in the world. To say nothing of technological advances.
186 posted on 08/16/2002 4:45:16 PM PDT by Phillip Augustus
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To: discostu
If our culture is so cool it will survive. If it doesn't it wasn't that cool. Our culture has always been made up of bits and pieces. And frankly the very concept of "American culture" is a misnomer. I've lived in LA, Chicago, Tucson and Alamagordo, and visited many others; they all had very distinct and obvious culutural differences. Different sizes of city have certain differences in culture, different areas of the country have differences in culture. There are a few constants, but even those aren't as constant as many think. Even the language varies heavily from area to area.

Here you illustrate your error throughout. You recognize the considerable variety in American cultures. These--as do all other cultures on this planet--reflect the people who create them. The populations of different areas are different. America has always had traits in common. America has also always had a variety of separate cultures. The traits in common in 1776-1783, were a common acceptance of the idea of independence from the mother country. But each State was settled by different people. Each reflected its own settlers. We had a National conscience in common, and 13 separate national consciences, based upon those differences.

Now since you recognize the differences, consider this. You can go almost anywhere, today, in the world--I won't say anywhere, because I do not know for sure--but certainly anywhere that I have ever been--and regardless of the surrounding culture, anywhere that you will find a Chinese Restaurant, you will almost always find an owner--and probably some of his family--who work harder than the average restaurant owner in the particular area or country, and have a better chance than the average person attempting that business, to actually succeed in that business. In other words, people take their traits with them. They do not abandon those traits like chameleons, when they go far away. (Now please, do not cite some isolated case, where you heard of a lazy Chinese restauranter--I cannot vouch that there never was such, but the evidence of its rarity is very apparent.)

And as for all that "fly over" space. Would you sprawl suburbia over the best farmland? Do you think we should settle the dessert--the tops of mountains--the great woodlands of the Northwest? The fact is that we do not need anymore settlers. We should pick and choose very carefully, whom we do allow in.

And you need, also, to get away from lumping all Spanish speaking peoples together. They are not all alike, you know. The use of the term Hispanic is just more of the "Liberal" newspeak, like calling American Indians, "Native Americans," people in a wide variety of States, Appalachians," or Negroes, settled here for almost four centuries, "African-Americans." The Left is playing down the qualities that make people unique, in order to focus on their geography or language--and sometimes on such things as skin color. This also confuses people's sense of their own identity, because it reflects constantly changing terminology.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

187 posted on 08/16/2002 4:57:59 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Johnny Shear
I'd like to shake you father's hand. You? Well, I'd like to throw you on a deportation bus to Mexico, where you can speak all the Spanish you want. Then dare you to come back into my country.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

188 posted on 08/16/2002 4:59:03 PM PDT by wku man
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To: AM2000
Your little tale was a lie, though. That much is plain. I know full well that there are racists. I'm one who has had to defend myself against them. I also know that the anonymity of online discussion boards tempts some to try to pass off fiction as fact. You're not the only person posting here who likes to make up little tales and try to pass them off as personal experience.
189 posted on 08/16/2002 5:04:24 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
You don't know that it's a lie, but it's very interesting to me that you believe it is. It says a lot about you.
190 posted on 08/16/2002 5:10:50 PM PDT by AM2000
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To: Phillip Augustus
If you say so, IMHO the bauhaus movement pretty much signaled the end of Europe actually being useful contributors to the western world. Though I do think America is pretty handly kicking the crap out of Europe in technological innovation, that's what happens when you go all socialist, there's not much reason to invetn. Of course people don't leave a country for another because they prefer the poetry. They uproot themselves because they think there's a better chance to do things like eat and not be blown to bits. And when it comes to basic survival of the average person, Europe really sucked in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
191 posted on 08/16/2002 5:17:56 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Ohioan
I was with you all the way to "do you abandon these traits". Who's saying anything about abondoning traits? See here's the basic fallacy of the anti-Hispanic movement. You ASS-U-ME that integration of a Hispanic means getting rid of the things that make America great. I think that's absolute BS, and I think that after having spent the last 25 years living in the middle of the territory they supposedly are trying to reconquer. Absolute 100% rubbish. There is no reconquista, and the Hispanics are not a blight on our society.

I live in the desert, it's nice. I've got friends that live in Mt Lemmon, they don't seem to mind being on top of mountains. If you actually look at the math you'll see that we could (were we to have God-like powers to redistribute the population as we see fit) spread this country out with a population density similar to that of Kansas and not give up any serious farmland or put huge populations in bad places (of course if you're familiar with the History of my home town of Chicago you'd know that we can do a lot with crappy territory). 1 mile per person is a lot of territory. I never said we "need" more people, I said we're not over crowded. This would be a lot simpler if you'd stop putting words in my mouth.

You're the crowd doing the lumping. I'm not the one that's decided the only Spanish speakers that should be allowed in the country are from Spain. As a matter of fact you stole my point. I've been saying the whole time that you can't make crass generalizations about Hispanics. Guess I won that point.

Do you have to put that link to Flax's garbage in every post? I already told you I'm not welcome there (it's not me, it's him, he listed off the kinds of people that shouldn't go, I was OK until he said I had to support bigorty and pretend it was celebrating diversity), and the background color is blinding anyway. Get him to change his mind about me and his background color and maybe I'll go, as it is you're just wasting space.
192 posted on 08/16/2002 5:30:33 PM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu; All
Discotu,
I really don't know where to begin so I'll simply reply to your assertions as you make them. I do think that you have real issues with the central culture of America.

So the problem is that they all speak Spanish? As someone who's lived the last 25 years in the middle of La Reconquista let me tell you: if La Raza manages to take over our country it's because we're pathetic and didn't deserve to live.
Nice to see how much you love America.
I've got another idea: Reduce immigration and fix our culture. Unlike you I love this country.

You forgot about the Italian and Sicilian immigration during the same period, that's important, without that mass immigration we lose an entire genre (considered to be a true American genre) of movie. That's an important influx to me because my grandmother (3rd generation American of German extraction) met Al Capone (2nd generation American of Italian extraction).
I have a far dimmer view of the Mafia and organized crime. We would be a better country without it, even at the loss of a few good movies. I have far more concerns about the rise of the "white-slave" trade in America (illegal immigrant women forced into prostitition by the Russian and Chinese Mafias) than for the career or even nationality of Mario Puzo.

Communism got introduced in that period because, at the time, Marx was right. The worker was treated like crap and paid next to nothing. Work place death from physical abuse and unsafe conditions was common place.

1. Marx was right? Good Conservative aren't you.
2. A virtually unlimited supplty of unskilled labor is what allowed the poor working conditions. If someone got hurt, they could be replaced by someone off the boat. Immigration reduced the impetus for improving productivity through technology, which would have also necessitated workplace changes. Teh truth is that far more than the unConsitutional government programs it is the change of technology which helped workers. Immigration hurt this and fostered socialism. Look at agraculture today, if you thik I'm kidding. We have Guatamalns picking fruit more cheaply than machines would.

Luckily capitalism showed why it's the best, we adapted. The companies (largely spearheaded by Ford) learned you could actually turn a profit and treat your workers well at the same time (as Ford learned, well paid workers and employee discounts creates a customer base, which gets your product seen and provides free advertising).
Again as increase in productivity through rasiing skilled labor is what allowed this. Immigration stalled this. It is no coincidence that Ford did this just as the US was closing the last great wave of immigration.

The only reason the immigrant population was involved in the communist movement was because they were the primary source of cheap (ie abused, at that time) labor. Once they started getting treated like humanbeing communism experienced it's first big fizzle.
Communism, perhaps but not socialism. tow things happened in the 1920s and 1930's.
1. Immigrants became enfranchised as they became citizens and their children grew up.
2. The programs of the Socialist and Progressive Parties became teh platform of the Democrat Party, which was ellected by the "white ethnics" in the North.

The north east became a bastion of the left because of the colleges. Communism has always been popular with the over educated faux elite. Where all all the ivy league colleges? This actually happened before the big immigration boom, the over educated fell in love with Marx immediately. Really even before Marx the colleges of the east had serious tendencies towards what we now call liberalism, it just didn't have a name until Marx showed up. Blaming the immigrants for this is stupid.
I would argue that the Northern Wasp elite was drained by the Civil War both in numbers and morally. That is what allowed new ideologies to be accepted.
However the influence of foreign professors cannot be ignored. Many of the intellectuals from the failed revolutions of 1848 came to the US.
However, the treason of teh elites, did not have the electoral effect we are debating. The WASP middle and lower classes in New England were overwhelmed and displaced by immigrants in the mid and late 19th century. I would suggest that you read Henry Adams.

Again if our culture can't handle it we're too stupid to live. Better find smarter numbers.
1. Americans don't want to have their culture destroyed and country stolen. Every poll makes this clear.
2. Instead of killing htis country, why not reduce teh strain so we can fix our problems.
3. Whence your actual hatred of America?

What's 34 million immigrants? It's 1.8 of the population.
Your math is as sloppy as your reasoning. (34/280)*100=12.14285%
Roughly 1/8th of the population is foreign. I would say that it is time to cut the inflow and assimilate them and their children (I am a member of the later group).

According to some a million people a year move to LA (nobody says how many flee, what a crappy city). If they can handle it we can handle it.
LA is a sh*t hole. Real wages are declining, middle class flight, increased crime. Politicians who have no loyalty to America and utter contempt for its principles and people. If that is your vision of America, I want no part of it!

most of the Mexican immigrants don't believe their entitles to anything.
So why are so many on welfare? Why are they screaming to have in state tuition for thier criminal alien children?

. La Raza is mostly stupid college kids, always has been.
La RAZA (the race) is the NAACP for Mexicans. you are thinking of the far more frightening revanchist group, MeCHA.
The truth is that you should be woried. A prominent meber oif La Raza and a former student leader of MeCHA, Anthony Villagroza (sp?) was almost elected Mayor of LA. The threat is open and in front of you. You refuse to see it.

I used to work for a 1st generation Mexican-American, I asked him about La Raza, he laughed and said it was a great way to get laid.
Quite a few men signed up to various Hippy causes for the same reason. Look at the damage the New Left and their drugged out followers caused in teh last 35 years!

Why should we keep a political culture like our founding fathers? It's a different world.
1. Because it is the foundation of this country!?
2. Conservative people believe that working traditions should not change.
3. Because it defines who we are. I'm sorry that you hate this country. Move to Canada.

They built our Constitution with the ability to be ammended (or even scrapped and rewritten from scratch) for a reason.
The only reason you gave is that we should continue to allow immigrants. It is a circular arguement which underlines your contempt for this country.

They new the world would change and the nation would have to change with it. We proved a hundred years ago with the first influx of immigrants that our strength was our adaptability. The tree that cannot bend in the wind will break.
1. If the costs of the stran is the destruction of the country, why continue it?
2. WE are not the same country we were 100 hears ago. We are less able to assimilate immigrants.

Putting unreasonable demands on a new immigrant population that they behave differently from all other immigrant populations is pointless. Might as well demand day not be bright and hot.

As I amply should in my last post, previous immigrants did assimilate, but it took time and they brought some problems with them.
2. Why not simply stop immigration if the immgrants can't assimilate? Unlike you, I am devoted to this country, not some ideal of allowing the whole world into the US, even at the cost of destroying it.

Let things run their natural course. That's what's going to happen anyway, the only question is how much you embarass yourself saying the sky is falling when it's not.
1. You admitted that the country is being destroyed. To me that means the sky is falling.
2. There is nothing natural or inevitable about immigration. We controlled it very well between 1924 and 1964.

193 posted on 08/16/2002 6:02:37 PM PDT by rmlew
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To: Phillip Augustus
Discotu hates Americas political culture and political traditions. He speks leftst drivle on sociali issues and occasionally on economic ones. He is no conservative,
194 posted on 08/16/2002 6:23:43 PM PDT by rmlew
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To: rmlew
Glad you caught the La Raza/MECHA distinction. Our "conservative" friend discothu confuses the two; he believes that La Raza is a marganized, whacked-out group rather than a respected, powerful ethnic identity political movement that will eventually become as powerful as the NAACP. If discothu does not even grasp that, he would better served avoiding discussions of this nature.
195 posted on 08/16/2002 6:42:43 PM PDT by Phillip Augustus
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To: wku man
I'd like to shake you father's hand.

If you mean you admire a person like him, then you're obviously a racist. And by default, a disgusting human being that the world would be better without.

But hey...That's YOUR choice...

196 posted on 08/16/2002 6:55:26 PM PDT by Johnny Shear
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To: Johnny Shear
I don't know your father, and quite frankly, his views are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
197 posted on 08/16/2002 7:05:01 PM PDT by Phillip Augustus
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To: rmlew
Anybody that thinks I hate my country is an idiot and had to put some serious effort into mis-reading what I said. This is obvious by how you cut up the post for your response. I clearly contradict your interpretation many times right after you inserted your own comments.

Also, I've never said we should stop or even limit immigration. What I'm against is any for of limiting immigration that picks who comes in based on some foolish idea of "cultural compatibility". A few folks on this thread have proposed that our immigration should be 80% from Europe. Given that Europe only account for about 1/6 of the world's population that has levels of patent silliness that shows the people in question have unreasonable issues with certain cultures.

All this paranoia about La Raza and La Reconquista is stupid. These groups are primarily drunk college kids looking for sex with other drunk college kids. How pathetic would a culture have to be to be overthrown by them? Don't confuse NCLR with La Raza, they aren't the same group. MECHA is an offshoot of the real La Raza (as real as that ever was). NCLR is an obnoxious mouthpiece organization. Niether is a threat, but it's two very different kind of shmucks.

Marx was right about the problem but wrong about the solution. At the time Marx was around the workers of the world (not just here but Europe as well) were treated worse than dogs. And no immigration didn't play into this, you can tell because the places people were emigrating from had the problem just a bad as we did. What Marx didn't understand was that this "system" wasn't a result of capitalism, it was a result of classism. Hence why his solution can never work, he's trying to get rid of capitalism to fix the problems of classism, that's like emptying your toilet to fix a clogged sink.

The Mexican immigrants in AZ aren't calling for socialist BS. They were the group leading the charge to get rid of English as a Second Language. All the "trouble" seems to be coming from the ones in CA, gee what a surprise. They aren't the only socialists in CA. There are immigration "watch dog" groups (mostly seriously misguided religious groups) that call for all kinds of socialist BS, but when you see their rallies the whiteness of the groups is blinding.

A country, a people, a person, proves it's worth by standing up to the strain. I have a firm belief in my ability to rise to any challenge, and if I fail I take all the blame. I have a firm belief in America's ability to rise to any challenge, and if we fail WE should take all the blame. Whining aobut indading brown people is doing nothing more than setting us for failure. If you want to shut down all immigration for a while great, I do think we could do with a few years to absorb and adjust. If you just want to stop Mexican immigration, well that's playing fast and lose with paranoic fantasies and I'm not signing up because I know they're fantasies.
198 posted on 08/16/2002 10:38:24 PM PDT by discostu
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To: rmlew; Phillip Augustus
Oh, then you go bad mouthing me behind my back. Shows how great you guys are. Sorry charly I love this country. That's why I spend days arguing with shmucks like you that want to turn us into some KKK enclave of racial lies and stupidity. I am a conservative. More than you could ever hope to understand. Have some balls, speak to someones face when you're insulting them.
199 posted on 08/16/2002 10:41:14 PM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu
Of course any one that thinks this is living in complete ignorance of American history. How is it that all the big cities in America developed these enclaves with names like: Little Italy, Chinatown, Little Havana, etc. The simple fact is the first generation of imigrants, since the original colonists that didn't mingle with the native population, have ALWAYS clustered together with their own kind. It's pretty scary being in a new country with new traditions a new language and all the other new things. It's much easier for people to phase into the new country (usually in generations) by clustering together and slowly spreading out. That's how it's worked since day one, that seems to be how it's always gonna work. Anybody thinking that this is a new development is a fool.

39 posts before somebody talks with any sense! America has *always* taken in new citizens from other lands and often the first wave learn little more than a rudimentary understanding of English - enough only to find a job and make a living. In most cases, they depend on their own kind to help them adjust to our country and culture. The only difference is we now have governement mandates that are more accommodating to foreign tongues than before.

The children are often sent to American schools where they do learn English and become Americanized much faster than the first generation did. This is how the process has historically worked and assimilated - not with the first generation but with the second.

It is an inescapable fact that the vast majority of our leaders in government are still white males. Look at the racial make-up of the U.S. House and Senate and you'll see few non-white faces. The whites still control the government. And the foreigners, those that even bother to vote, are overwhelmingly electing white candidates.

Now look at the business sector and, again, you'll see white males in great dominance. It is well-known, too, that, without a good working vocabularly in English, your chances of succeeding in American business are slim. There *is* pressure for all immigrants to learn English to be able to do more than menial labor in America.

I honestly don't fear what immigrants are doing to our country and our culture as much as what liberalism and the media are doing to our country and our culture. While it is easy to blame those who don't speak your tongue, the real evil comes from the whites who want to indoctrinate immigrants and their children with their liberal mores and mindset.

200 posted on 08/16/2002 11:14:15 PM PDT by Tall_Texan
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