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The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?
Stand to Reason ^ | 1994 | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 08/13/2002 7:59:31 AM PDT by Frapster

I got a call from a gentleman from San Francisco who was exercised about Christian missionaries going into foreign lands. Then he started talking about not only the destruction of indigenous beliefs, but also the destruction of missionaries. That's what he wanted to see happen. He also said that Christians and religious groups are responsible for the greatest massacres of history. It turns out he was quite supportive of Wicca and indigenous religions which worship the Mother Earth force, Gaia. This is essentially the basic foundation for witchcraft.
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The assertion is that religion has caused most of the killing and bloodshed in the world. There are people who make accusations and assertions that are empirically false. This is one of them.

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But a couple of the things that he said were a challenge to me. Not only did he assert that historically missionaries have destroyed cultures and indigenous religions at the point of a gun, but also Christians and religion were responsible for most of the bloodshed in the world, or the great majority of it. I've heard this claim before. I wanted to respond with more detail because I'm sure you've heard these things as well.

I have a tactic that I employ in situations like this that is called "Just the Facts, Ma'am." In other words, there are times when you're faced with objections to Christianity or your point of view that really fail with an accurate assessment of the facts. There are people who make accusations and assertions that are empirically false. This is one of them.

The assertion is that religion has caused most of the killing and bloodshed in the world. The greatest atrocities committed against man were done in the name of God.

Before I get to the particular facts, there is more than just a factual problem here. There is a theoretical problem as well and I tried to make the point that we must distinguish between what an individual or group of people do and what the code that they allegedly follow actually asserts. The fact is that there are people who do things consistently that are inconsistent with the code that they allegedly follow. But often times when that happens, especially where religion is concerned, the finger is pointed not at the individual who is choosing to do something barbaric, but at the code he claims to represent. The only time it's legitimate to point to the code as the source of barbarism is if the code is, in fact, the source of barbarism. People object to a religion that used barbaric means to spread the faith. But one can only use that as an objection against the religion if it's the religion itself that asserts that one must do it this way, as opposed to people who try to promote the spread of the religion in a forceful fashion in contradiction to what the religion actually teaches.

It's my understanding that much of Islam has been spread by the edge of the sword. That isn't because Muslim advocates were particularly violent. It's because their religion actually advocates this kind of thing. The difference between that and Christianity is that when Christianity was spread by the edge of the sword it was done so in contradistinction to the actually teachings of Christianity. This is when individual people who claim to be Christians actually did things that were inconsistent with their faith.

I've had some people that have told me when I've brought this up, "That's not a fair defense. You can't simply say that those people who committed the Crusades or the Inquisition or the witch burnings weren't real Christians. That's illegitimate." My response is, why? We know what a real Christian is. A real Christian is someone who believes particular things and lives a particular kind of lifestyle. John makes it clear that those who consistently live unrighteously are ipso facto by definition not part of the faith. So why is it illegitimate for me to look at people who claim to be Christians, yet live unrighteous lives, and promote genocide to say that these people aren't living consistently with the text, therefore you can't really call them Christians. I think that's legitimate.

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It's not fair or reasonable to fault the Bible when the person who's waving the sword is doing things that are contradictory to what the Bible teaches.

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For example, no one would fault the Hippocratic Oath, which is a very rigid standard of conduct for physicians, just because there are doctors who don't keep it. We wouldn't say there's something wrong with the oath, the code that they allegedly follow. We'd say there was something wrong with the individuals who don't live up to the ideals of that code. That is the case frequently where people waving the Bible in one hand are also waving a bloody sword in the other. The two are inconsistent. So it's not fair or reasonable to fault the Bible when the person who's waving the sword is doing things that are contradictory to what the Bible teaches ought to be done.

So that's the first important thing to remember when you face an objection like this. Distinguish between what a person does and what the code they claim to follow actually asserts. Christianity is one thing, and if we're going to fault Christianity we must fault its teachings and not fault it because there are people who say they are Christians but then live a life that is totally morally divergent from what Christianity actually teaches.

As I said earlier, this kind of objection falls when you employ a tactic I call "Just the Facts, Ma'am," and I'd like to give you some of those facts. My assertion as I responded to the gentleman who called last week was simply this: it is true that there are Christians who do evil things. Even take people's lives. This is an indication that these people aren't truly Christians, but it may be true also that people with the right heart, but the wrong head do things that are inappropriate, like I think might have been the case in the Salem Witch Trials.

My basic case is that religion doesn't promote this kind of thing; it's the exception to the rule. The rule actually is that when we remove God from the equation, when we act and live as if we have no one to answer to but ourselves, and if there is no God, then the rule of law is social Darwinism-- the strong rule the weak. We'll find that, quite to the contrary, it is not Christianity and the belief in the God of the Bible that results in carnage and genocide. But it's when people reject the God of the Bible that we are most vulnerable to those kinds of things that we see in history that are the radical and gross destruction of human lives.

Now for the facts.

Let's take the Salem Witchcraft Trials. Apparently, between June and September of 1692 five men and fourteen women were eventually convicted and hanged because English law called for the death penalty for witchcraft (which, incidentally, was the same as the Old Testament). During this time there were over 150 others that were imprisoned. Things finally ended in September 1692 when Governor William Phipps dissolved the court because his wife had been accused. He said enough of this insanity. It was the colony's leading minister, by the way, who finally ended the witch hunt in 1693 and those that remained in prison were released. The judge that was presiding over the trials publicly confessed his guilt in 1697. By the way , it's interesting to note that this particular judge was very concerned about the plight of the American Indian and was opposed to slavery. These are views that don't sit well with the common caricature of the radical Puritans in the witch hunt. In 1711 the colony's legislatures made reparation to the heirs of the victims. They annulled the convictions.

I guess the point is that there was a witch hunt. It was based on theological reasons, but it wasn't to the extent that is usually claimed. I think last week the caller said it was millions and millions that were burned at the stake as witches. That certainly wasn't the case in this country. It seemed that the witch hunt was a result of theological misapplication and the people who were involved were penitent. The whole witch hunt lasted only a year. Sixteen people were hanged in New England for witchcraft prior to 1692. In the 1692 witch hunt nineteen were executed. So you've got thirty-five people. One hundred fifty imprisoned. This is not at all to diminish or minimize the impact of the American witch hunts which resulted in thirty-five deaths. But thirty-five is not millions. It is not hundreds of thousands. It's not even hundreds. It's thirty-five. This was not genocide.

Now in Europe it was a little different. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft in 1431. Over a period of 300 years, from 1484 to 1782, the Christian church put to death 300,000 women accused of witchcraft, about 1000 per year. Again, I don't want to minimize the impact of 1000 lives lost a year, but here we're talking about a much, much smaller number over a long period of time than what has been claimed in the past.

In America we're talking thirty-five people. In Europe over 300 years, we're talking about 300,000. Not millions. The sources here are World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana . You can also read in Newsweek , August 31, 1992. I was accused of being a liar last week. I'm trying to give you the facts from reputable sources that show that the accusations from last week aren't accurate.

There were two Inquisitions. One of them began right around the end of the first millennium in 1017. It began as an attempt to root out heretics and occurred chiefly in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Spanish Inquisition followed in the fourteenth century and was much bloodier. It began as a feudal aristocracy which forced religious values on society. Jews were caught in the middle of this and many of them were killed. About 2000 executions took place. The Inquisition that took place at the turn of the millennium, less than that. So we're talking about thousands of people, not millions.

There were actually seven different Crusades and tens of thousands died in them. Most of them were a misdirected attempt to free the Holy Land. Some weren't quite like that. There were some positive aspects to them, but they were basically an atrocity over a couple hundred years. The worst was the Children's Crusade. All of the children who went to fight died along the way. Some were shipwrecked and the rest were taken into slavery in Egypt.

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The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

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A blight on Christianity? Certainty. Something wrong? Dismally wrong. A tragedy? Of course. Millions and millions of people killed? No. The numbers are tragic, but pale in comparison to the statistics of what non-religion criminals have committed.

My point is not that Christians or religious people aren't vulnerable to committing terrible crimes. Certainly they are. But it is not religion that produces these things; it is the denial of Biblical religion that generally leads to these kinds of things. The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

My source is The Guinness Book of World Records . Look up the category "Judicial" and under the subject of "Crimes: Mass Killings," the greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one sovereign against the government of another is 26.3 million Chinese during the regime of Mao Tse Tung between the years of 1949 and May 1965. The Walker Report published by the U.S. Senate Committee of the Judiciary in July 1971 placed the parameters of the total death toll in China since 1949 between 32 and 61.7 million people. An estimate of 63.7 million was published by Figaro magazine on November 5, 1978.

In the U.S.S.R. the Nobel Prize winner, Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimates the loss of life from state repression and terrorism from October 1917 to December 1959 under Lenin and Stalin and Khrushchev at 66.7 million.

Finally, in Cambodia (and this was close to me because I lived in Thailand in 1982 working with the broken pieces of the Cambodian holocaust from 1975 to 1979) "as a percentage of a nation's total population, the worst genocide appears to be that in Cambodia, formerly Kampuchea. According to the Khmer Rouge foreign minister, more than one third of the eight million Khmer were killed between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. One third of the entire country was put to death under the rule of Pol Pot, the founder of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. During that time towns, money and property were abolished. Economic execution by bayonet and club was introduced for such offenses as falling asleep during the day, asking too many questions, playing non-communist music, being old and feeble, being the offspring of an undesirable, or being too well educated. In fact, deaths in the Tuol Sleng interrogation center in Phnom Penh, which is the capitol of Kampuchea, reached 582 in a day."

Then in Chinese history of the thirteenth to seventeenth centuries there were three periods of wholesale massacre. The numbers of victims attributed to these events are assertions rather than reliable estimates. The figures put on the Mongolian invasion of northern China form 1210 to 1219 and from 1311 to 1340 are both on the order of 35 million people. While the number of victims of bandit leader Chang Hsien-Chung, known as the Yellow Tiger, from 1643 to 1647 in the Szechwan province has been put at 40 million people.

China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinese. According the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Solzhenitsyn says the Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. Kampuchea destroyed one third of their entire population of eight million Cambodians. The Chinese at two different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35 million and 40 million people. Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion. And all but the very last actually assert atheism.

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Religion, and Biblical religion in particular, is a mitigator of evil in the world.

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It seems to me that my colleague Dennis Prager's illustration cannot be improved upon to show the self-evident capability of Biblical religion to restrain evil. He asks this in this illustration. If you were walking down a dark street at night in the center of Los Angeles and you saw ten young men walking towards you, would you feel more comfortable if you knew that they had just come from a Bible class? Of course, the answer is certainly you would. That demonstrates that religion, and Biblical religion in particular, is a mitigator of evil in the world.

It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.



TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: apologetics; atheism; christianity; crusades; inquisition; murder; reason
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To: That Subliminal Kid
I missed the other two, glad I found this one :)
21 posted on 08/13/2002 10:25:49 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: Frapster
In olden days, pagan peoples would slaughter each other for land. Then in the age empires, nations were exterminated for resisting the god-emperor.

Ancient slaughter was repeated in the west when the mongol hordes conquered Europe.

Christianity introduced widespread religious slaughter to the west but they mostly killed each other, for example the Jews were banished, not killed, by the Inquisition.

But, it was Neitsche's throwing off of all religion and all morality that paved the way for modern mass-murder ala Hitler, et al.

22 posted on 08/13/2002 10:25:52 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: BMCDA; Dimensio
bump
23 posted on 08/13/2002 10:29:43 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Frapster
The real murderers?

I'd say those are people who kill other people when it's not in self defense.
24 posted on 08/13/2002 10:36:27 AM PDT by FourtySeven
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To: chance33_98
And what is the base belief which has so often destroyed lives? That one group is superior to another and that the only way to make the world a better place is to destroy the inferior group before they destroy you. We act in self defense against a real or perceived threat and take measures to insure our own survival.

The idea of racial superiority only dates to the 19th century, the word anti-semitism was first published in 1873, it was Czar Nicholas II that commissioned 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' in the early 1800s.

The rise in non-religious (anti-semitism is not religion-based) violence dates to the rise of the western democracies, in olden days the tyrant derived his power from the nobles, the modern politician derives his power from the masses and the masses can't be kept in aristocratic splendor, so excuses must be found. A perpetual scapegoat class must be maintained. Not many of the early 20th century politicans thought that their politics would be made real by the likes of Hitler, et al.

25 posted on 08/13/2002 11:05:31 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Cruising Speed
Thanks for setting that in clearer terms, the coffee is just now spilling through my system :)
26 posted on 08/13/2002 11:08:22 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: Frapster
It was Democrats!! Democrats I tell ya!!!
27 posted on 08/13/2002 11:12:29 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Frapster
And then as far as pederasty goes - that is also gaining ground as an acceptable practice. While I find it completely immoral the subject is an excellent example of what we humans can achieve when we remove God from the equation.

History is rife with 'messiahs' trying to reach the divine through pederasty. There is no compelling reason to believe that morality can only by found through religion.

28 posted on 08/13/2002 11:22:06 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Frapster
The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

Indeed.

Personally, I'd broaden the criticism of Christianity to include religion and its functional equivalents. In the case of theistic religions, the religion is used as a tool to justify one group's slaughter and/or subjugation of another group. With functional equivalents (i.e. substitutes) for religion, such as the personality cults of Stalinism or Maoism, the methods are similar, though aims and motivations might be somewhat different.

One big problem I have with this line of discussion is the use of the argument that those who killed and pillaged using the name of God weren't true Christians. Similarly, Socialists and Communists tend to claim that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al weren't true Socialists or Communists, that they distorted the principles of their political "faith" to further their own ends. Curious.

Regards,
Snidely

29 posted on 08/13/2002 11:30:26 AM PDT by Snidely Whiplash
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To: Cruising Speed
History is rife with 'messiahs' trying to reach the divine through pederasty. There is no compelling reason to believe that morality can only by found through religion.

As the article I posted states - just because some perverted human in the past has used religion to promote their dispicable deeds does not mean they were in any way legitimate representations of that religion if it can be demonstrated that the teachings of that religion are in direct contradiction to the behavior of the individual or groups. You've not proved anything with your statement.

The only things you've successfully illustrated is that mankind is capable of awful acts against humanity and religion does not corner the market on that.

And lastly I would agree that morality cannot be found only in religion because I do not think that religion invented morality.

30 posted on 08/13/2002 11:57:48 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Snidely Whiplash
One big problem I have with this line of discussion is the use of the argument that those who killed and pillaged using the name of God weren't true Christians. Similarly, Socialists and Communists tend to claim that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al weren't true Socialists or Communists, that they distorted the principles of their political "faith" to further their own ends. Curious.

In response it is important to note that the author rightly points out three things. First - where people are involved the potential for evil becomes greater. No religion or ideology is immune. Secondly - to lump Christianity in with Socialism and Communism is to blindly ignore their significant differences. The author clearly distinguishes between the two and rightly so for they are as different as night and day which leads to the third point. In light of the distinct differences and the numbers discussed in this article it can certainly demonstrated that an absence of God greatly increases the potential for violence against humanity. Where God is present there is a significantly lesser potential for violence. But where man is present violence is surely to happen.

31 posted on 08/13/2002 12:26:29 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
As far as Christianity is practised in the U.S. and the west in general in this modern age, I have no real problems. It is, in a number of ways, far better than what went on before and we are probably in agreement on most things.

However, I think the argument that olden day Christians weren't Christian because they did bad things is very weak. The 'teachings of Christianity' is not a set thing, it has changed dramatically over the course of 2200 years. The medieval Christians who torched heretics believed that they were taking the man's life to save his immortal soul; they were saving him from hell.

32 posted on 08/13/2002 12:58:16 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Frapster
I agree with you 100%. The "religious violence" argument is a liberal scape goat...and needs to be exposed.
33 posted on 08/13/2002 1:10:33 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Cruising Speed
However, I think the argument that olden day Christians weren't Christian because they did bad things is very weak. The 'teachings of Christianity' is not a set thing, it has changed dramatically over the course of 2200 years. The medieval Christians who torched heretics believed that they were taking the man's life to save his immortal soul; they were saving him from hell.

2,200 years? Isn't that number large? Regardless, that's besides the point. In response to your comment - I think God will be the judge of whether the medieval church was following His teachings or not. But based on what I see in scripture I get the strong impression they were seriously misguided.

34 posted on 08/13/2002 1:13:27 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
Christianity predates Jesus of Nazareth by about 200 years.

I agree with you that Christians who torched heretics were misguided, but I disagree that they weren't good Christians.

Jesus taught that loaning money at interest was a mortal sin, today we think that is misguided, but does that make Jesus not a good Christian?

35 posted on 08/13/2002 1:26:24 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Cruising Speed
Jesus taught that loaning money at interest was a mortal sin, today we think that is misguided, but does that make Jesus not a good Christian?

If that's what Jesus taught then I'd say we're misguided - not him. However, I'll have to ask for a reference as this is the first time I've ever heard Jesus having been attributed with teaching such a thing.

36 posted on 08/13/2002 1:41:45 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
I didn't want to argue whether modern Christians are, on the whole, less violent than modern atheists, because they probably are.

I just wanted to make the point that the 'good' Christians of any era were the ones following the dominant doctrines, whether or not we view those doctrines as valid today.

Not all atheists are nihilists, I despise nihilists, they forget they are supported and comforted by the world's greatest Christian state (America is still, I think, a Christian nation, I mean, even the godless democrats invoke God's name when speaking in public) and if they were exposed to their politics made real, they would be the first to scream their heads off.

37 posted on 08/13/2002 2:19:52 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: rdb3
Didn't Stalin say that the murder of one is a tragedy while the murder of millions is a statisic?

I think that it's typically attributed to him, though I don't know if he was the one who said it (I know that it's been misattributed to at least one person, but I don't remember if that person was Stalin).

In any case, you should consider the intent of the statement. A single person's death can be made to sound more tragic than that of millions at once because you can easily lay out the hopes, dreams and plans of a single person whose life was cut short, but it's hard to do that when you've got a million victims to consider. Also, while it's likely that you'll know "one" person who will die, you're not likely to get to know "millions". As such, the death of the one person you know can have a greater impact on you than the deaths of millions whom you've never met.
38 posted on 08/13/2002 3:48:14 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Cruising Speed
But I think where I'm struggling in what you're saying (and this may be my struggle entirely) is the use of the term "good." A good Christian is not one who follows the current trend in Biblical interpretation but one who lives in light of God's truth as He interprets it. As I grow older I question lots of conventional approaches to worship in churches today and I finally had to realize that the biggest mistake the modern church makes is to think they have it completely right. This is not to be confused with thinking the church is in error except to the point that it must realize we have not "arrived." Historically each church has had it's form of error - this age is no different. Error is still error and God's way is immutable. I understand what you're saying about the 'good' Christians but I would still argue that they were not good Christians - the good ones may have been as hard to find then as they are now.
39 posted on 08/13/2002 4:01:33 PM PDT by Frapster
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