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USO Canteen FReeper Style Monday Mail Call ....
August 12,2002
FRiends of the USO Canteen FReeper Style Our Troops and Snow Bunny
Posted on 08/12/2002 2:03:30 AM PDT by Snow Bunny
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![](http://images.fotki.com/v7/photos/3/34283/126675/Welcome-vi.jpg?1026037972)
If you know a Veteran, someone in your family, friend of the family, neighbor, who served their country, take a brief moment of your day to thank them. Thank them for the sacrifice they made for the better good of their country.
We at Free Republic, and the USO Canteen FReeper Style, are thankful for every service member in our military, who has served our great nation.
So, to the men and women who answered the call, in both times of war and peace, thank you.
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Message from Snow Bunny to all those who visit the Canteen.
This is how I think of the USO Canteen Freeper Style. It is like a cottage down a road, a place where a weary veteran can spend the night.
Since it opened, it is magical how so many Freepers who post here, feel it too. It has been so dear how the Freepers kept making it a cottage - a home-type of place that had a huge living room for them to visit in and a dance floor, a library, etc.
Many Veterans have written to me, saying that the Canteen is like home to them for the first time since they served.
This is your Canteen - a respite from our busy and sometimes troubling world. Make yourself at home...............................................................................................................................................................................
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Our troops need our support and encouragement. They are away from home, some for the first time, and usually lonely or discouraged. It is important for us to reach out and help them in the same way we would want someone to reach out to our loved ones if and when they are in the same position.
They answered their call and we are answering theirs offering them the USO Canteen FReeper Style each day and thanking them for serving.
This is IN Coming Mail from some of those serving now.
We at the USO Canteen FReeper Style, a running thread at Free Republic, are proud to support our Military. The mail comes in from contacting some of our Military Bases, Marine Corps Leagues , and friends and family of those serving now. Also from responses at the wonderful P.O.Box that 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub has made so easily available to each of us here at Free Republic.
They are writing to those that frequent the FReeper USO Canteen to thank you for your support.
ALL the mail posted on Monday Mail Call is Recent Mail from the prior week.
![](http://d21c.com/SnowBunny/writetroops/teddybearmail)
![](http://d21c.com/SnowBunny/writetroops/willeyjeep)
Snow Bunny
Hi babe! Thanks for your fast response, it sure meant a lot .
Since my grandparents are from Scotland it was really
Something to see the bag pipes with the great Colorado
Patriots supporting us.
I had a lump in my throat to see the work they did to get
together for us, to support us like that!
God bless the Canteen and all of you for doing your part
back home. It is felt and appreciated.
Steven
USAF
Snow Bunny ,
Hi Canteen !
I had a great day with you on Tues.August 6th.
LindaSOG had presented Why I love America
and I wish I could have shared why I love
America too. So I am doing it in this email.
I love my country because in all the places I
have traveled it is not just my homeland, but
a symbol of freedom to me and to the entire
world. And to keep America free it comes at
a cost as it always has. For some higher then
others but always at a cost. And you better
believe it is worth any cost to keep it FREE!
You all know that at the USO Canteen Freeper
Style and it shows every time I get to visit.
I want to thank you for your faithful patriotism
to our land that will stay free .
Thank you LindaSOG and the Canteen.
Your friend
Adam
USARMY
Hey Snow Bunny
What a group you have there and what a place
The Canteen is and FR too.
I say it is MOM, Apple Pie and the Canteen!
Keep it up and I will pass the word along.Thank
You for all of your support of us.
Sandy
USAF
Snow Bunny and all the Canteen,
I vote for all the Canteen Girlz as you spell it!
Victoria I wish I was a leopard or tiger you
could tame me anytime.
MEOW
Love and kisses to all the Girlz
Johnny
USMC
Hello Snow Bunny,
The Canteen knocks my socks off!
Souris I want to put you in my pocket, you
would fit just right ! LOL What a doll you
are! I am in love here or should I say a fan
of yours.
I would like to thank you Snow Bunny
and every one at the Canteen for the best
support of what we are doing I have ever>br> seen. You must be the most special people
that I will ever meet in my life even in cyber
space.
Love you all and kisses
Marc
USMC
Dear Snow Bunny
Right now I am on the move so I am not sure if I
I will be able to see the Canteen for a week or two.
The last few months I have been able to catch it
almost everyday and it means an awful lot when I
can.
My Dad heard about Free Republic from a friend
at the gym he goes to. So he wrote to me about the
Canteen that it was about what we are doing .
Thanks Dad for all you do and for being my Dad.
When you count those addicted to the Canteen Hey
count me in on that.( raising my hand)
I would like to give one of the special Bunny hugs to
Kathy in Alaska, Radu, Souris,Bluesagewoman,MoJo2001
and welcome you to the Canteen.
Thank you for the trip to New York and the beautiful
music Victoria ( I could be home by Christmas heh heh)
honest Im not sure when I will be home.
God Bless the USA and God Bless the Canteen!
Kyle
USMC
SpookBrat and Snow Bunny
I want to get this off to you both right now.
SpookBrat your sharing about your father, well,it
touched my heart deeply. For awhile now I thank
God every time I get to come to the Canteen. And
today I thanked him for your father and his service.
Men like your Father SpookBrat are heros and should
be thanked.
Snow Bunny, you have the best friends at the Canteen
I can feel the care each one of you have for each other.
Then add in the best support system for all of us I have
ever seen or felt. Thank you Canteeners.
God be with you all and your loved ones.
Tandy
USAF
Dear Snow Bunny,
WOW! What a place, what a group you all are!
Everyone adding their own special touches every
single day of the week.Holy Cow! ( cleaned that one up
for the ladies.LOL)
Aomagrat thank you for the history of war ships.
I sure do love reading about these ships and how it
effected our county with the wars.
Mr_Magoo my Dad loves what I send him about
the planes, he is a WW11 vet .
Samwolf, my mom wrote me she saw me in one of
the pictures you had posted. She said she cried and
I just want to thank you for what you do everyday.
Tomkow6, you are a natural! I swear you have me
laughing so hard every time I get to visit the Canteen.
Tell those voices in your head they are brilliant! ROTFLMO
I want to thank everyone of you, because you all have
made me laugh and feel at home. I know I will not be
able to remember everyone and it concerns me. Because
you all make my day a better one.
Victoria Delsoul what beautiful graphics you choose
for the topics of each day, beautiful like you are. I can
tell the care you take with them.
] Then the music , thanks so much!!!
Souris I would say you are as cute as a bug in a rug, but
that is an insult for the sexiest, cutest mouse in the world.
Thank you for the smiles on my face seeing what you
come up with everyday. LOL
AntiJen , a Vet and a beautiful girl in one package with a
personality that is such fun. I can have one of your hugs,
see I am a guy so dont worry about the NHH stuff with me.
LOL Oh God help me all you girls are hilarious!
Coteblanche how do I tell you what it means, to have one of our>br> Canadian friends live and in person everyday supporting us and
our Canadian friends, serving with us in this war. You have the
gift of graciousness and giving that makes meeting you a gift
to all of us.
MistyCA bet you didnt know I knew you were gone. LOL
Sure did and counted the days along with everyone else . But
I hope you took a better vehicle then the one with the Beverly
Hillbillies. LOL I am a big fan of your 666 situations you get
yourself into. HUG
SpookBrat you have me laughing with your humor and
how you say the things going on with you. Youre a doll
SpookBrat.
SassyMom and your Bad Boy. I think of the two of you as
the Canteen sweethearts. Hey SassyMom, I think your guy
Kneezles must laugh to himself when he gets you to blush.
The two of you show me there is hope for me finding the
right girl for me someday.
Kathy in Alaska what a girl you are. I saw you tell everyone
how you had watched the Canteen like we do here. I sure
am glad you joined in and I can tell everyone else is too.
Youre a living doll and your enthusiasm is contagious.
Radu, your name is intriguing to me. You are sweet and I
hope to see more of you.
MoJo2001 thank you for the music and your support of us.
Thank your husband for serving and tell him he is a lucky
guy.
Hi Jinx I found the Canteen the day you were the Freeper Friday
Veteran. I salute you my brother.
Johnny Gage my cousin is a firefighter in New York. So I
noticed your trucks right away. Thanks!
LindaSOG the remarkable history lessons each time I am there.
I think I would like to ask for tutoring if it is ok with you.
Something we could do over a nice dinner and a bottle of
wine. You could tell me all the history you want and I would
love every minute of it.
I apologize to those I did not mention. That concerned me
when I wanted to write this email to Snow Bunny. God sent
you all and the Canteen into my life. Enlisting after Sept.11th,
was one of those things I had to do or how could I enjoy my
freedom that others were going to fight for.
Thanks again everybody !
Joe
USARMY
Jim Robinson and Snow Bunny and the Canteeners,br> Free Republic is the best place on the net. I have watched
it grow over the years. As a lurker I can tell you that with
the USO Canteen Freeper Style joining in , it is the finest
addition to FR that I have seen . Jim Robinson is my own
personal hero for many reasons. Thank you sir for FR and
the Freeper USO Canteen.
Lurkers may stay lurkers for a long time but we love FR
no matter if we post or not. So I wanted you to know that
all your work and that of the Canteeners to take a running
thread and turn it into a place as you have is remarkable.
Kathy in Alaska your stepping forward like you did has
brought yet an added light to the shining lights of others
at the Canteen and FR.
Bless you all for what you mean in my life. The Canteen is
a place of comfort and support to an old veteran like me.
Jake
Conservative & Vietnam Veteran
USMC
Hi Crew!
Just a quickie note here ( I know ok BAD Boys lets keep it
it clean my MOM is watching ROTFL)
Lots going on here right now so not a lot of time
to dig in and write as much as we want to. But since
the Canteen is our second home we miss all of you.
SpookBrat we did catch your Pirate post to us. LOL
Thanks for thinking of all of us.
Hey Tonk,are you driving the girls wild in your uniform?
Lookin good Tonk our brother!
Misty we need to talk about your traveling like that with
those hillbillies. LOL
Thanks guys for the jokes , besides gut laughs from us,
they even got us out of a little trouble the other day.
Long story, we were asked to scrounge a bit and then
got in a little misunderstanding about who asked us and
why. LOL It goes with the calling, Sam you know what
that means. That higher calling of being a scrounger and
a Bad Boy. Magoo, Tomkow and Kneezles you saved the
day !
Hey Starman sir, are we taking a test too? Here are our
answers ahead of time. Moonlight and Stars
guide a sailor in his dreams. ( pretty romantic huh)
as long as they stay up where they belong we will
make us of them down here.LOL
Not bad for a scrounger.
Canteen Bad Boys Kiss the girls for us !
Joe, Marty, Al, and myself Scully the Scrounger
Scully and the Pirates
USNavy
Dear Snow Bunny and Canteen supporters
I wanted to write and thank you for your
belief in us and your support.
Yesterday was my 4th time at your Canteen.
You did the theme about the Purple Heart and
the story behind it. Thank you, my Dad loved
it when I sent it to him. He is going to register
at FR now because of the Canteen. He will get
into FR big time as he loves politics.
Dad is a Korean War Veteran and will love the
Canteen too.
The Canteen and the Poetry Branch are where I
like to spend my online time when I get it. Dad
sent me a journal to jot down things I write so I
can one day send you something for the Poetry
area for submission to Coteblanche.
The thing you call Infinite Freep Rallys for the
Troops is awesome to me. Your work in Colorado,
Fresno and all the other places like Bluesagewomans
report I read at the Canteen. KNOW this , it is
with great pride that I thank all of you.
Thank you for having the Canteen to come to . Thank
you for FR for my Dad and for me one day.
Bobby
Special Forces
Monday Mail Call
~by Victoria Delsoul~
Mail call means our troops are near,
When they are happy, down or blue
They know how to write us here
At the USO Canteen we're waiting for you.
It doesn't matter where you are
It doesn't matter when
Anytime you need someone to talk to,
We are here to be your friend.
If you need someone to play a song,
To post a graphic or to say I care
If you need a shoulder to cry on,
Know that the Canteen is always there.
Mail call is a window to your soul
but if the weight gets to be too much
Take a look at the Canteeners heart
You'll find good friends with the right touch.
United we stand to our country defend,
Through the good times and the bad
You're never alone; the Canteen is your friend
So until next mail call
oh, what a time we had.
TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: usocanteen
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To: Valin
Interesting stuff, Valin. Never knew all that. What facts you learn on the USO Canteen - just like on all of Free Republic.
To: Freedom'sWorthIt
THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU !!!!! For these terrific pictures. Have I told you how much I LOVE and RESPECT our President!!! God be with him and protect him.
62
posted on
08/12/2002 7:02:28 AM PDT
by
SassyMom
To: All
I'll be back in a few hours.
I woke up early to read the Mail.
I have to be at work at 11:30AM PST
So I'll grab a little more shut eye and post again before I leave.
God Bless and Protect our military.
God Bless the USO Canteen.
To: LindaSOG
1914 John Philip Holland, submarine designer, dies
John Philip Holland
(1841 - 1914)
John Philip Holland was born in the village of Liscannor, Ireland on February 24, 1841. - the second child of John Holland and Maryy Scanlon. His Father patrolled the headlands of County Clare as a rider with the British Coastguard Service. His mother was a local girl. John had an older brother Albert, and two younger brothers: Robert and Michael.
Little is known about John's boyhood. He lost his brother Robert and two uncles to illness during the Great Famine of 1847. John probably attended St. Macreehy's National School in Liscannor and the Christian Brothers secondary school in Ennistomy. The family moved to Limerick when he was twelve. On June 15, 1858, John Holland joined the Order of the Irish Christian Brothers and trained to be a teacher.
I was a schoolmaster in Cork, Ireland, when your civil war was in progress, [Holland] remarked, and about two weeks after the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimac [March 9, 1862], it struck me very forcibly that the day of wooden walls for vessels of war had passed, and that ironclad ships had come to stay forever. I reflected that with her tremendous facilities England would apply them to the situation and become the chief naval power of the world; and I wondered how she could be retarded in her designs upon the other peoples of the world, and how they would protect themselves against those designs.1
The seed was planted, but it did not take root immediately for John developed an interest in flight. "My first design was made in 1863, shortly before I began the study of submarines, but I had no suspicion of the influence of the chief, almost the only, natural force employed by every flying animal"2 His first submarine design was developed in 1869, while teaching in Dunkalk, Ireland.
John's younger brother, Michael, had escaped to the United States following the abortive Irish rebellion in 1865-1867. His mother and brother, Alfred, left Ireland in 1872 bound for Boston Massachusetts. Then, on May 26, 1873, John Holland withdrew from the Irish Christian Brothers and prepared to join his family in America.
Shortly after arriving in Boston, John slipped on an icy street and was confined to his rooms. His thoughts turned to the problems of submarine navigation. The following year, John accepted a position as a teacher at St. Johns Parochial School in Paterson, NJ.
John Hollands brother Michael introduced him to members of the Irish Fenian Brotherhood in 1876. The Fenian Society financed the construction of John Hollands first three submarines. However, disagreements within the Fenian Brotherhood resulted in the theft of the Fenian Ram and the 16-foot model on a dark night in late November 1883. John Holland severed his relationship with the Fenian Brotherhood after this incident.
John Holland was now 42 years old and chose not to return to teaching school. He took a job as a draftsman at Rolands Iron Works in New York City. The following year, he accepted a position with Army Lieutenant Edmond Zalinskis Pneumatic Gun Company. Encouraged by this, Lieutenant Zalinski began promoting the idea of a submarine armed with a pneumatic gun. This led to the construction of the "Zalinski boat" on the grounds of Fort Lafayette in 1885 and 1886.
John Holland married Margaret Foley in Brooklyn on January 17, 1887. John and Margaret had seven children - John P. (1888 - died in infancy), John P. (1890 - 19??), Robert Charles (1891-19??), Julia (1894-1913), Joseph Francis (died 1942), Mary Josephine (died in infancy) and Marguerite (1897 - 1960).3
"In 1888, the United States Navy Department announced an open competition for the design of a submarine torpedo boat that would meet the following specifications:
Speed: 15 knots on the surface, 8 knots submerged
Power endurance: 2 hours submerges at 8 knots, provisions for 90 hours.
Ease of maneuvering: circle in no greater space than 4 times her length.
Stability: assured normal or positive buoyancy at all times.
Structural strength: sufficient to withstand pressure at depth of 150 feet.
Power of offense: torpedoes with 100-pound charge of gun cotton."4
John Holland won this competition, but no contract was awarded. Discouraged, John Holland turned his attention to the problems of mechanical flight. Unable to find a backer for his aircraft designs, John Holland accepted a position as draftsman with Morris and Cummings Dredging Company. John Holland worked for Charles Morris until 1893.
On February 27, 1893, a young lawyer named Elihu B. Frost told Charles Morris that he would consider forming a company to provide Holland with the necessary capital to continue his submarine experiments. When Congress appropriated $200,000 to cover another competition for a submarine torpedo boat on March 3, 1893, Frost decided that the time was right. At short time later, Frost met with John Holland and agreed to loan him the money needed to prepare his bid. The Holland Torpedo Boat Company was formed that spring. Elihu B. Frost assumed the role of secretary treasurer and John Holland became a manager with a salary of $50.00 per month.
The rumor was that John Holland won the 1893 competition but the Navy Board decided to examine George Bakers existing boat before making an official announcement. In the end, the money to fund construction of a submarine was diverted to other construction projects and construction of the Plunger was delayed two years.
The construction of the Plunger proceeded slowly. There were many changes and delays. The Navy requirements could not be met and Holland became frustrated dealing with the Navy Department. By the fall of 1896, Holland realized that the Plunger would be a failure. He sought and received approval from the Holland Torpedo Boat Company to build his sixth submarine as a private venture - free from Navy interference.
The Holland VI took shape on the ways of Lewis Nixons Crescent Shipyard in Elizabethport New Jersey during the spring of 1897 and was launched on May 17, 1897. Construction continued throughtout the year and trials began the following March. Frank Cable replaced John Holland as trial captain in late 1898 following incidents of forgetfulness and inattentiveness. John Holland was 57 years old, but his mind never stopped working. He had learned much during the trials of the Holland VI and was hard at work designing an improved (type 7) submarine. The specification and drawings for the type 7 were forwarded to the Navy in November 1899.
The purchase of the Holland VI on April 11, 1900 lead to many discussions regarding the size of the submarine fleet and what to do with the submarines. The Naval Appropriation Act of 7 June 1900 provided for the construction of five improved Holland boats. Construction began in late 1900. These boats were built under the supervision of Naval Constructor Lawrence Spear - a conservative technician with no experience with submarines. The inventor and the constructor battled. John Holland was demoted from General Manager to Chief Engineer.
As the companys focus changed from developing a working submarine to marketing and construction, the friction between John Holland and Electric Boat management grew. Lawrence Spear was hired by Electric Boat as vice-president and naval architect in 1902. Eventually Holland had enough, and on March 28, 1904, John Holland resigned. He was 63 years old.
John Holland was down but not out. He still had ideas and friends. Unfortunately, he had very little money. He designed a submarine capable of 22 knots. When he presented this to the Navy, their conclusion was "that while the inventor unquestionably could acheive the speeds he claimed for his boat, the dangers inherent in such a swift craft were too great to accept; further, the speed of a vessel running submerged should never exceed six knots because of the difficulties of navigating underwater."5
All attempts by John Holland to re-enter the submarine business were effectively thwarted by the Electric Boat company who filed a suit against him "applying for an injunction, and claiming substantially that [he] had agreed to assign to them all [his] inventions and patents during the term of [his] natural life." They also filed suit to prevent him from using the name "Holland" and alleging a verbal contract never to compete with Electric Boat.
John Holland was beaten. He quietly withdrew from public life and resumed his work on aircraft.
On 12 August 1914, John Holland succumbed to pneumonia. He was 73 years old. "Forty days later, the German Navys U-9 torpedoed the British cruisers Aboukir, Cressy, and Hogue off the Dutch coast. A submarine of only four hundred and fifty tons, manned by twenty-six men, had sunk thirty-six thousand tons of the enemys ships and had sent some fourteen hundred men to their death in the waters of the North Sea."6
64
posted on
08/12/2002 7:05:37 AM PDT
by
Valin
To: bluesagewoman
That story is wonderful! Thanks for posting it!
Corrie Ten Boom, who spent over a year in solitary confinement in one of the horrorible prisons during Nazi Germany's terrible time in power in Europe - because she and her family harbored and helped Jewish people during that reign of terror - wrote always:
"The Best Is Yet To Be"
Now I will think of "save your fork" story along with Corrie's comments to remember and savor those we are with now, the times we have now, the friends and loved ones we have now - but will also remember, that for God's children, the best is yet to be!
To: bluesagewoman
I've always enjoyed stories like this...
It reminds us that optimism is a good thing!
66
posted on
08/12/2002 7:14:40 AM PDT
by
HiJinx
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub
Thanks, Tonk, for the reminder - will be sending some emails later today. Your reminders are always helpful to those of us with short term memory loss ... LOL!
Sassy Mom = glad you like those pictures? Aren't they wonderful? Such a contrast to that wineswilling, Martha's Vineyard grubbing imposter who was in the White House before President Bush.
You did see his comments to reporters?
Oh - and just for you - one more beautiful picture of a Commander in Chief of whom all Americans and all in our military can be proud:
To: coteblanche
Yeah, I thought some people might want to overdose on this guy's beautiful voice this morning.
I apologize for not bumping you.
I didn't realize that you're not on this computer's bump list..........but you are now!
Have a great one!
68
posted on
08/12/2002 7:20:17 AM PDT
by
COB1
To: COB1
Thank you for the Don Williams tunes. Love that guy! (And you too!)
To: LindaSOG
1071 Turks rout Byzantines at Manzikert, killing Emperor Romanus II, brings Islam to Europe.
That Terrible Day
The Byzantine defeat at Manzikert, AD 1071
The battle of Manzikert was such a shattering defeat that the Byzantines were never able to speak of it as other than "that terrible day". It was on that terrible day in 1071 that "Anatolia, heartland of Byzantium,.. was lost forever to Christendom". In one catastrophic day the eastern Roman Empire had lost its major recruiting region, its major grain producing region, and its vital trade route between Constantinople and the riches of the East.
The Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes was crowned on January 1st, 1068. According to Norwich, he was an arrogant man with a strong sense of his own importance but he was also a brave soldier. Romanus understood the threat the Seljuks posed to his empire. At home in Constantinople, Romanus had to deal with Michael Psellus and the Ducas family who, according to Norwich, loathed him and his rise to power and were resolved to bring about his destruction. The strength of this ill-feeling towards him made it virtually impossible for Romanus to leave Constantinople on campaigns, because every time he left there was the possibility of one of his enemies attempting a coup. This, however, played to his advantage because he was able to devote his energies to improving the army, obtaining new equipment, implementing new training programs and recruiting new forces. The truce that had recently been made with the Turkish leader Alp Arslan was continually being broken by the marauding Turkomans and was generally considered by Romanus as a failure. Romanus was already planning a campaign for 1071, with an army of some seventy thousand men.
According to Runciman, the army assembled by Romanus in 1071 was:
no longer the magnificent force it had been fifty years before..... The cavalry regiments, sixty thousand strong, that had patrolled the Syrian frontier... were now disbanded. The imperial guards, hand-picked and highly trained Anatolians, were far below their old strength. The bulk of the army consisted now of foreign mercenaries, the Norsemen of the Varangian Guard, Normans and Franks from western Europe, Slavs from the north, and Turks from the steppes of southern Russia, Petcheneg, cuman and Ghuzz. Out of these elements Romanus collected a force of nearly a hundred thousand men, of which perhaps half were Byzantine born.
This expedition crossed the Bosphorus in the second week of March 1071, and then headed eastward. The historian Michael Attaleiates was present; it is his version of events of that summer that remains the most detailed and trustworthy account of the Battle at Manzikert. Two-hundred miles into the journey, Romanus' demeanour is said to have changed dramatically. Attaleiates suggests that Romanus had been disturbed by various bad omens, among them being the sudden breakage of his tent pole, the unexplained fire in his tent that damaged most of his personal possessions and the loss of many of his best horses and mules. The Emperor's determination remained firm, realising that if he were to return to Constantinople without having engaged the Seljuks on the battle field, he would have little chance of maintaining his role as Emperor.
According to Norwich, Romanus sent the greater part of the Roman army towards Lake Van, under the command of the experienced general Joseph Tarchaniotes, while he himself and his senior commander Nicephorus Byrennius continued with the remainder of the army towards the little fortress town of Manzikert. Tarchaniotes and his force met with misfortune of some sort, but it is not certain what happened. Later Moslem historians claimed that he had been overwhelmed in a great battle, but there is no contemporary evidence for this. Norwich believes that Tarchaniotes may have deliberately abandoned the emperor and was really a traitor, a tool of the Ducas family.
On the other hand, Runciman tells us that Joseph Tarchaniotes was Turkish born, and commanded the largest contingent of mercenaries, the Turkish Cumans. He believes that 'the Cumans, remembering that they were Turks and in arrears with their pay, had gone over in a body on the previous night to join the enemy' Whatever happened to Tarchaniotes, Romanus was now left to fight the Turks with less than half his army. His corps d'elite, the Norman and Frankish heavy cavalry, decided to take no part in the battle.
There is no certainty about the actual date and location of the battle; the actual date varies from 5th August to 26th of August. Moslem historians are unanimous that it took place on a Friday in August; Michael Attaleiates says that it was a moonless night, and, according to Norwich, this means that it must have been the 26th. The most likely location is a fairly level steppe with rougher and hillier country close by, beyond which is a line of foothills cut through with ravines and gullies - ideal ambush territory - about a mile or two from the fortress of Manzikert.
There are no contemporary eye-witness accounts of the events of that day, other than Michael Attaleiates. According to Jasper Streater "Arab historians for two centuries wrote of it in great detail, and sometimes in rhyme, and no two agreed on the size of the armies engaged." Anna Comnena refers to the battle very briefly towards the end of her history when she is narrating her father's dealings with the Turkish sultan Saisan:
(Alexius) made a speech, explaining his decision in full.'If you are willing' he said, 'to yield to the authority of Rome and to put an end to your raids on the Christians, you will enjoy favours and honour, living in freedom for the rest of your lives on lands set aside for you. I refer to the lands where you used to dwell before Romanus Diogenes became emperor and before he met the sultan in battle - an unfortunate and notorious clash which ended in the Roman's defeat and capture..'
Anna's husband, Nicephorus Byrennius, whose grandfather took part in the battle, also wrote an account of the action. According to this, fighting began on the day before the actual battle, when Romanus sent out a detachment of troops to drive off what he believed to be a small band of turkish marauders, then later a larger detachment led by Byrennius himself. Byrennius found himself 'confronted with what must have been a considerable proportion of the entire Seljuk army' By nightfall, it must have been clear that the Byzantine army would have to fight when the day came.
The expected battle did not take place on the next day. Instead, a Turkish delegation came with an offer of peace. Romanus dismissed the idea of a division of the Armenian territory proposed to him by the embassy. According to Streater, this was an inexplicable error on his part, a failure to exploit the growing rift between two branches of Islam, the Shi'ites and the Sunni. Alp Arslan had been intent on marching against the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt and only turned north reluctantly to deal with the Byzantine threat. Romanus could have exploited the Moslem quarrel to his own advantage. His refusal made the battle certain.
It seems likely that Romanus now organised his men on the battle field in the style of the traditional army manuals, that is, a long line several ranks deep, with the cavalry on the ends. Romanus himself took the centre, with Bryennius on his left and a general named Alyattes on his right. The rearguard was composed of the private armies of the great landowners, under the command of Andronicus Ducas, the nephew of the late Emperor. Andronicus should never have been allowed to participate in the battle, let alone to lead the rearguard, as he made no secret of his contempt and loathing for Romanus. However, Romanus no doubt thought it better to have Andronicus under his watchful eye, rather than at home in Constantinople where he was likely to stir up more trouble, or so Romanus thought.
The imperial army advanced across the steppe towards the Seljuks, who steadily withdrew into a crescent, allowing their archers to shower the Byzantine's flanks with arrows. The cavalry, probably angered by the Seljuks' archery, followed the Seljuk horsemen towards the foothills and fell straight into prepared ambushes. The Emperor remained on the battlefield, frustrated by the lack of enemy. Realising that there was nothing further to gain from pursuit, especially as the sun was setting and he had left his camp practically undefended, Romanus ordered the imperial standards to be reversed, the signal to withdraw. Alp Arslan had been waiting for this signal from his observation point in the hills above and ordered his men to attack. As Arslan's men poured down onto the steppe, the Romans broke in confusion. Many of the mercenary units retreated, assuming that the Emperor had been killed or captured, and this allowed the Seljuks to infiltrate the front line and separate it from the rearguard. Had the rearguard acted correctly by moving forward they would have prevented the Seljuks' escape. Instead, Andronicus spread the word that the emperor had been killed and the battle lost, and subsequently fled. This act caused more confusion among the remaining troops and more and more of them fled the battlefield. Only the Emperor remained with his personal guards around him. Romanus fought valiantly until the end:
The emperor was completely isolated and deprived of reinforcement. Then he charged, his sword bare, killed more than one Turk and forced others to flee. But finally, surrounded by a mass of enemies, he was wounded in the hand. Recognized by the enemy, hemmed in on all sides, he was captured when an arrow wounded his horse, which slipped and lost its footing, felling its rider at the same time
Romanus was treated by Alp Arslan with the respect that his position entailed. For the next week, Romanus remained as a guest in the Turkish camp and ate at Alp Arslan's table. The peace terms were more than moderate and merciful. The Sultan only demanded the surrender of Manzikert, Antioch, Edessa and Hieropolis as well as one of Romanus' daughters as a wife for one of Arslan's sons. The ransom for Romanus was even reduced from ten million to half a million, with a further three-hundred and sixty thousand in annual tribute. Romanus was then allowed to return to Constantinople, because of the very real danger of a threat to his throne. Romanus had hoped to return to Constantinople as Emperor, but these feeling were not shared by the inhabitants of Constantinople. The news of the defeat had come as the second cracking blow in one year, as 1071 had also seen the fall of Byzantine Italy to the Normans led by Robert Guiscard. This is how the arrival of the news was described by Nicephorus Byrennius:
A very few days passed before one of the fugitives arrived at Constantinople as bearer of evil tidings, and then there was another, then a third and a fourth, having nothing precise to announce except the catastrophe itself...... The matter was discussed in council by Empress Eudocia, Romanus' wife, who was asking what she had to do. Everyone agreed that it was necessary provisionally to abandon Romanus to his fate, whether he was prisoner or dead, and that the empress must secure the power for herself and her sons. Everyone was still in suspense when it was decided that the empress-mother and Michael Ducas, the eldest of her sons, should share the empire under the following conditions: Eudocia should have the honours due to the mother of the emperor, but she should share with her son the reality of supreme power.
Romanus was able to gather together what was left of his army with the intention of marching into Constantinople and reclaiming the throne from his step-son, Michael VII Ducas. There were two battles before Romanus reached Constantinople, both against John Ducas and in both Romanus was defeated. After the second battle he gave himself up to Andronicus, agreeing to renounce all claims to the throne and to retire to a monastery. In return he was given assurance that no harm would come to him on his return to Constantinople However, Andronicus put Romanus on a mule for the five-hundred mile journey back to Constantinople and allowed him to be attacked by onlookers, one of whom poked out his eyes. Romanus died in the summer of 1072.
The Battle of Manzikert can be seen as the most disastrous battle in the history of Byzantine civilization. Romanus was a brave and gallant leader, but it was his naivety in trusting Andronicus with leadership of the rearguard and his lack of information of the enemy's movements which caused the East Roman army's worst defeat ever.
70
posted on
08/12/2002 7:21:46 AM PDT
by
Valin
To: LadyX; Kathy in Alaska; kneezles; SassyMom; COB1; Snow Bunny
From yesterday's thread, you said something about armadillos:
the armadillo is found all over the South..:)))
We had them in Florida (where I grew up) by the gazillion - here in South Carolina - had them in North Carolina.
One silver one there used to come up on the back deck often and look in through the sliding glass doors, and ask "How yew be??!!"
LOL ! But one thing about Texas armadillos: They sing and can
![](http://208.185.249.64/ubb/icons/icon7.gif)
play the guitar!:
![](http://www.texasmusicmuseum.org/armadillo.gif)
Oh, bury me on the lone prairie!.....
To: maxwell
Check out #71 too, Maxwell !
![](http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/Presentations/Slides/armadillo.jpeg)
To: Snow Bunny
![](http://www.cartogra.com/rs/65193B40-ABDE-11D6-B42C-0090277A760E/screen)
Did someone say "MAIL CALL"
To: Freedom'sWorthIt
What facts you learn on the USO Canteen
You and me both. I often pick a subject that I don't know much or nothing about.
Interestingly For much of the Civil War(or War of Northern Aggression) it was in the west that the Federals had their most/only success. Grant, Sherman, Halleck all came out of this theater.
74
posted on
08/12/2002 7:30:49 AM PDT
by
Valin
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub
I know the Canteeners appreciate us for standing on the corner every Friday, whether it be 109 degrees or 36degrees, whether it be rainy, frosty, foggy or humid. Many of them stop by the thread to give us some encouragement. It is greatly appreciated!
75
posted on
08/12/2002 7:43:29 AM PDT
by
JustAmy
To: larryjohnson; AntiJen
Bring on any water aerobic tips you have, please. I can't do the "on land" thing - broke my back when I was 8 months preggers with my 14 year old and have never quite gotten the spring back in my step. With a pool right outside my back door I should be able to manage SOMETHING more than floating around with a tall cool one, though.
By the way, yes, there are hills in LA, but not where I live. Can you say swampland? Can I get credit for a steep flight of stairs?
To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Hello, friend!..:)))
Thank you for the Dubya Dose!
Having seen him REALLY, REALLY up close when he came to my small town just before the South Carolina Primary, I can attest to his appearance as that of a proud and hard-working man.
Can you imagine how thrilled I was when he stood before me and whipped up his pen and signed the lapel sign I'd made on my computer that said "VETERAN FOR BUSH"??!!
As he signed it, he commented "I saw this earlier!"
My position, arriving early, was a mere 12' from where he spoke.
South Carolina gave him his FIRST primary win, and set him down the path to vistory.
77
posted on
08/12/2002 7:46:57 AM PDT
by
LadyX
To: LadyX
![](http://www.fathom.org/teemingmillions/wisdom.gif)
It is often hard to bear the tears that we ourselves have caused. Marcel Proust
78
posted on
08/12/2002 7:52:23 AM PDT
by
WVNan
Comment #79 Removed by Moderator
To: MeeknMing; lodwick; kneezles; SassyMom; SpookBrat; COB1; Humidston
We can always count upon yew Texans to top us all!!!
LOVE the graphic - LOL!
(izzatyew, Don??)
80
posted on
08/12/2002 7:53:14 AM PDT
by
LadyX
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