Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | John Fiorentino

[FormerLurker]

Uh, I meant to say..

If the smoke cloud center is at 7500 feet and the top of the smoke cloud is 7700 feet, the diameter of the cloud is 200 400 feet, not 2000.

You see, when I make a mistake, I admit it and correct it, unlike somebody else we know all too well...

[FormerLurker]

Now I beleive that big ball of fire& smoke is going to act the same way, unless there exists a tremendous inversion.

Hot air does rise, doesn't it. So the actual explosion could very well have been closer to 7000 feet and the smoke may have risen 500 feet by the time they flew by it. The air at that altitude IS much colder than that at sea level, so the high temperature of the explosion WOULD have heated a large mass of air that WOULD have risen.

Good catch mach0.8..

[FormerLurker]

I have a problem with anyone who claims to be a "Scientologist". They have an agenda, and it isn't a good one...

[Asmodeus]

Evidence necessary to connect the dots compatibly comes from all kinds of sources.

The central key to understanding the sequence of events observed in the sky has always been the altitude of the Massive Fireball explosion. You have now publicly stated that it was 6500 feet. The CIA says it was about "1 mile above the surface". But neither you nor the CIA factored in it's huge size. The 5500-7500 altitude in The "Missile Witnesses" Myth does.

Now, all you have to do is produce the actual "missile witness" reports for the readers that you've supposedly been relying on to support the "shootdown" notion to continue your efforts to connect the dots compatibly.

I also set the bait for Acehai, the briefcase carrier for Sanders, by including the reference to that statement in Faret & Wendell's report that the top of the MF smoke cloud was at 7700 feet. Acehai has an interesting "theory" about that, one that in view of your earlier allegations you might consider a witness assassination effort.

Let The Games Begin!

[JohnFiorentino]

Yes, that can be accepted if the plane were vectoring slightly Northward from the time of the IE.

What we find to the East in the debris field to the left or North were: parts of the rear cabin, the wings, several engines and parts, most of the tail, cvr, and fdr.

I can agree with that, absolutely......Thank you.

[Swordmaker]

Asmodeus, now you are having delusions of grandeur... to think that a copy of your website link is what caused CNN to do what CNN does anyway is ludicrous.

[JohnFiorentino]

Assmo says....

"I also set the bait for Acehai,"

It should be quite apparent by now, that continuing debate with Mr. Asmodeus will only lead to yet more continuing and unproductive debate. Although debate may be the wrong word, simply because when he opens his mouth and inserts his foot, he merely moves on to another "topic."

The point is, I believe......as the theme of this thread underscores ......THERE WAS NO 'ZOOM-CLIMB'

There was NO TIME for a zoom-climb. There is not one iota of supporting evidence for a zoom-climb. Even Asmodeus himself has labeled the CIA/NTSB cartoons "untenable."

The motivating factors behind these cartoons was to try and explain, what was otherwise viewed as unexplainable.

The foisting on the witnesses and the populace that up was down and down was up. The crapola flung around by NTSB with their "Airborne Witness Matrix" which has been so proudly paraded here, in effect WEAKENS, not STRENGTHENS their case. Does NTSB honestly believe that because an airborne witness 50 miles away DIDN'T report a "streak" somehow buttresses their inferred relevance of that non-observation?

That is pure BUNKUM!

All of the witness observations in this case, as in any other, are open to varying degrees of interpretation first by the witnesses themselves, in their own minds, and later by those who must try and make some sense out of them.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for the information!

[Swordmaker]

?There was no smoke or smoke trails above it.

THIS is the most significant part of that statement, Lurker. The LACK of a smoke trail above the smokecloud of the Massive Fireball shows that there was NO BURNING PLANE TRAILING SMOKE TO BE MISTAKEN FOR THE MISSILE.

Kerosene or JetA fuel will burn with a BLACK SMOKE if it is not properly mixed. Yet these witnesses did not see a plume, trail, or anything above the cloud.

[JohnFiorentino]

Precisely, because it is highly doubtful that what did in TWA Fl800 was an "explosion" in the CWT. There MAY have been some type of low yield overpressure early on, perhaps even at the time of the IE. After all we do have CW-504 at the Western most point in the debris field with an A/C unit and nose tire.

But there were other events which most likely were the true IE.

[GregoryFul]

Presumably if both wings had blown off the fuselage would have actually reached orbit.

Don't you know that a rocket ship has very small wings, if any? So don't be so quick to reject this 'zoom climb'. If the second wing had fallen off, you can bet it would have shot straight up in the air, and maybe into orbit. Think of all that momentum concentrated in the unburdened body of the aircraft.

[Swordmaker]

Have you noticed that Asmode does not respond to my posts? I think it is because he cannot refute them. He will respond to others' comments BASED on one of my posts and quote something I may have said... but never does he respond. I met his challenge and posted a detailed time-line for the destruction of Flight 800 yet we hear not a peep out of him referencing that time-line. Do you suppose it is because my work is based on the math, the data, the evidence, and that I am willing to discuss my reasoning for making the conclusions I have?

Asmodeus is not; he just links back to his website of compiled twaddle and blithers about "expert witness report analysts" as though the witness testimony was the ONLY evidence at hand. Any "expert" witnes report ananlyst can only evaluate the incompetent FBI agent's 302 reports not the actual witnesses' statements. The 302s are notes written by third parties unfamiliar with aircraft accident investigations FROM RECOLLECTIONS of what witnesses were ALLOWED to say in response to the incompetents' incompetent questions and often leading questions.

Many of the witnesses, when shown the 302 reports of their interview have flatly denied they said what the FBI says they did. Of course you will not find an "expert witness report analyst" who will agree with anything in the 302s... because they are NOT WITNESS REPORTS! No one ever properly questioned any of the witnesses as far as I can see. Some attempts were made years after the events.

[FormerLurker]

If the second wing had fallen off, you can bet it would have shot straight up in the air, and maybe into orbit. Think of all that momentum concentrated in the unburdened body of the aircraft

That is physically impossible. Read the rest of the thread to see why....

[Asmodeus]

Note that the Massive Fireball explosion ENGULFED the first explosion. If that first explosion had taken place at or even in the immediate proximity of TWA 800 at 13,800 feet, the Massive Fireball explosion would have had to take place somewhere between approximately 11,800 feet and 13,800 feet if the huge MF was approximately 2000 feet in diameter

[FormerLurker]

What we find to the East in the debris field to the left or North were: parts of the rear cabin, the wings, several engines and parts, most of the tail, cvr, and fdr.

John, the debris was to the south east of the original flight path, strewn across three separate debris fields.

They are color coded as orange for the missile debris and resulting ejecta from the aircraft, red for the debris caused by the second missile, yellow for the nose section, and green for the main body, wings, and engines.

Again here's the radar graphic including the debris fields...

A larger and more detailed debris chart (sans the radar data) can be viewed by clicking on the link below...

TWA Flight 800 Debris Field