Posted on 07/22/2002 4:31:37 PM PDT by dubyagee
Having heard Atlas Shrugged touted often on Free Republic as one of the greats in literature, I recently undertook reading all 1,000 plus pages of this “objectivist bible.” I was suprised to find that I thoroughly enjoyed this book and while I agree with much that Ayn Rand preaches (and boy, is she preachy) I find the fact that she denies that God exists quite contradictory to her reason. So from a Christian perspective, I have decided to place some of these contradictions before you, in order that I might be abused by your intellectual snobbery (grin)…
IMHO…
First, Rand makes the mistake of lumping all believers in with “looters.” Were this the case, there would be no believers here at FR decrying big government or taking offense at the fact that the government wants our paychecks each month. The “right wing fundamentalist bigots” would not exist. Christians would be considered left wing lunatics. Clearly, there is a mistake in her presumption that all “supernaturalists” are the same. On a personal level, I have never met a Christian who would presume that the government should take care of those who refuse to take care of themselves, but only Christians who might venture to say, “But by the grace of God, go I…”
Secondly, for someone who professes any form of supernaturalism as contrary to reason, Ayn Rand repeatedly refers to the ugly side of man as “evil.” Rand obviously believes that evil does exist. But if man is only truly alive and good when he is true to himself and his virtue, how can evil exist? Where did it come from? How could this good and wonderful being called man, distort and pervert good to the point that it became evil? What is the source of this evil? Religion, Rand might say. But why would this marvelously intelligent creature pervert what he knows to be true for the sake of destroying his species? In the words of Francisco D’Anconia (I love this character, btw), “Contradictions cannot exist.” Good and evil contradict one another. The presence of both in this world is clearly a contradiction. Reason tells me that there must be a source from which each came. My reason tells me that each is trying to destroy the other, knowing that the two cannot exist indefinitely together.
Third, Rand does not believe that men are made up of nothing more than chemical reactions, but that they have a soul. A soul is supernatural in itself. We cannot see it. We cannot prove that it exists, but there are few who believe that it does not exist. If reason overrides all superstition, how can she make the claim that a man is more than what meets the eye? Does this not contradict the very essence of reason?
Finally, imagine Hank Reardon, creator of a vast empire, watching it be torn apart by those he has aided. The helplessness he felt, knowing that nothing he could say or do would convince them of their own smug self-righteousness. In that smug self-righteousness they desire to kill Reardon because he causes them to think, and therefore to see the evil within themselves. Now, if you would humor me for a moment, imagine the execution of a man named Jesus, who comes to this world He created, in a desire to save it from destruction by “looters.” He is, indeed, killed by smug self-righteous men who fear his logic. But instead of going to the ground, never to return in his greatness, he does return. And he acknowledges those who acknowledged him. And he gives gratitude to those who have shown him gratitude. And to those who did neither, he says simply, “I knew you not.” It is often said by those who belittle the intellectual capabilities of Christians, that the bible is full of contradictions and that a loving God would not turn his face from humans simply because they did not believe. But God, above all, would know, as did Ayn Rand, that evil does exist. The difference is that God would know from whence it came. And if he accepted all humans, regardless of their belief or unbelief, wouldn’t he be aiding the looters in his own destruction and the destruction of those who were “right”? Wouldn’t He be denying that He desired gratitude? Wouldn’t he be denying that he deserved gratitude? Wouldn’t that be a contradiction of all Ayn Rand professed to be right? If God exists, isn’t acknowledgement and gratitude the least he deserves in return for his creation?
If a soul can exist, so too, can God. If, for the sake of argument, God does indeed exist, Rand has brought herself down to the level of the evil “looters.” Her greatest contradiction is her refusal to acknowledge the possibility that God does exist, thereby offering him no acknowledgement and no gratitude for that which she worshipped above all…a great Mind. IMHO, Rand errs in her belief that this great mind that man possesses came from nowhere and from nothing because that in itself in contradictory. My reason tells me that greatness must come from that which is greater. Her denial was for the purpose of pursuing her own code of morality, which she perceived to be superior to that of God. She praises man and ignores the possibility of God, thereby corrupting her own belief system of giving gratitude and adulation to that which is greater than her.
The last thing that I am doing when I choose to believe in God is abandoning my reason. I am not practicing “Morality of Death” because before I believed in God I still believed in doing what is right. The bible does not contradict this; the bible simply makes it clear that men consistently choose that which is wrong over that which is right. Has history not proven this? Good and evil exist on this earth, of that no one can deny. Good and evil are contradictions in themselves, yet they both exist. Therefore, contradictions do exist. Although, according to my beliefs, one day they will cease to exist. But they will not cease before Atlas(God) shrugs(wink).
Oh, you mean the same 'serious' 'philosophers' that are responsible for the current state of affairs? Or do you mean their later-day Imp children?
Rand describes what IS.
To quote Chef --- "You're damn right!"
She's a woman. On a good day they can change oil.
I'll take your points in order.
First, Rand makes the mistake of lumping all believers in with “looters.” Were this the case, there would be no believers here at FR decrying big government or taking offense at the fact that the government wants our paychecks each month.
A lot of 'believers' are statists. Many are Nazis/Facists/Socialists. You'll find VERY few GOPers who decry taxation as immoral. Let them come on this thread and denounce taxation as theft.
Your mistake is that you are not in the 'group' you think you are (GOP), or you are assigning value(s) to the GOP that it does not have.
But if man is only truly alive and good when he is true to himself and his virtue, how can evil exist?
Because man is often not true to himself and virtue. It's a lot easier not to be.
Good and evil contradict one another.
False premise. Evil is the abscence of good.
Third, Rand does not believe that men are made up of nothing more than chemical reactions, but that they have a soul.
Although I agree with you, that Rand's statements that God does not exist are irrational, I'd need evidence that she ever said man has a soul.
Now, if you would humor me for a moment, imagine the execution of a man named Jesus, who comes to this world He created, in a desire to save it from destruction by “looters.”
This is a very interesting, and worthy point that I have not seen made before.
It is often said by those who belittle the intellectual capabilities of Christians, that the bible is full of contradictions
It is. But you're making another mistake. The Bible does not prove the existance of God. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but I believe in God. And Natural Order is one method of His proof. I have others, but they are personal.
Rand's mistake was trying to DISPROVE something by lack of evidence. I guarantee there is life somewhere in the Universe, besides Man. But I can't prove it. By her 'logic', it would be morally safe to nuke every planet without visiting it.
If, for the sake of argument, God does indeed exist, Rand has brought herself down to the level of the evil “looters.” Her greatest contradiction is her refusal to acknowledge the possibility that God does exist, thereby offering him no acknowledgement and no gratitude for that which she worshipped above all…a great Mind
Nice wrap up, bringing it all together.
One could also add what I did above. She has precluded a possibility without evidence.
At best she could say God 'could' exist.
It's not as if we're trying to disprove the Easter Bunny.
My reason tells me that greatness must come from that which is greater
Your reason is faulty. Greatness is a man-created concept. Created in our languages/thought processes. It could be possible for an alien society to exist that has no idea about 'greatness'.
I've actually been thinking of posting something similar, but never got the time. Glad you did.
In your earlier post, you acknowledged the world is becoming more and more that way each day.
Or do you mean the Resistance is a bizzare scenario?
It isn't and can be expressed in simple quality of life terms. I was hoping Gates would tell Reno to stuff it and close Microsoft and lead an economic crash - as I would have - but he's a coward, it seems.
Can you imagine? "As of this date, Microsoft is closed. If you want software or support, call Janet Reno. Goodbye."
:)
You mean you wanted Dagny to FORCE Eddie to accompany her. That's not going to happen.
God has promised to open the "eyes of our understanding, (Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints), not the throats of our credulity,(Mat. 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel).
Your earlier post about "organized religion" is absolutely correct. Jesus never established a religion, and all the "organized religions" usurp the authority of Christ, and teach things which will never be found in the Bible.
(Most of the teachings that dominate what are called "Christian" churches, were the inventions of Augustine of Hippo, a brilliant man, converted to Christianity, but full of pagan philosophy which he introduced into Christian doctrine.)
Hank
Friend, I hope you have asbestos underwear.
And watch your mailman and the cable guy. They'll rat you out.
Good thing I'm not you. I'd really hate to think that way.
You're missing that God is the Creator of Reason. Not Ayn.
Victor Hugo was her ideal, because the characters in his novels were larger than life.
Anybody can write a novel about ordinary people. It's done all the time.
To build an array of characters whose traits are so far different from each other, and from what most people are accustomed to in their friends and family, takes an extroardinary talent.
Subtlety was not her strong suit, however.
The best speech in the book, IMHO -- better even than the Galt radio speech.
"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.The rest of Francisco's speech is here. (too long to post on an already long thread)"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.
If that's the rule for this thread why are you posting here?
I believe what you do - that God is the Creator of Reason. And I certainly don't think (and never said) that Ayn is the creator of reason!!! What I said was that morality doesn't follow from reason. God gives us both morality and reason. If he just gave us the latter, and it led to right behavior (morality), he wouldn't need to give us the 10 Commandments; he wouldn't need to pound into us right behavior throughout the old testament, and he wouldn't have needed for Christ to teach us. Again, people employ reason (agreed given to us by God) for all sorts of purposes - including those which are nefarious. They need something more than that (which God does provide!).
But some people willingly give up money in order to serve others (e.g., Mother Teresa). She could hardly be called a 'looter.'
About 1/3 of humanity disagrees with you. Rand makes a big thing about not being forced to work for others. All (except communists and socialists) agree. But many believe that goodness includes voluntarily serving others. Christianity, in particular, posits that good is about becoming selfless to serve others. The idea that goodness equates with selfishness doesn't fly with a great many.
As I said before, evil people employ well-honed reason very well (Lex Luther, Mao Tse-tung, Hitler). When you say it's impossible to use the ability correctly and not agree with God, you're assuming something else (that which is correct), outside of reason.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.