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Great news. The "Bill" is coming due.

(in Breaking News as it was just reported on FNC...)

1 posted on 07/15/2002 3:24:20 PM PDT by sam_paine
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To: sam_paine
How can they get that assassin's mace through airport security? It's gotta look a little lumpy.

I don't think the Chinese have thought this through thoroughly.

2 posted on 07/15/2002 3:29:29 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: sam_paine
Bump
3 posted on 07/15/2002 3:30:24 PM PDT by ecomcon
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To: sam_paine
I like the summary. I am afraid that all of the FedGov's eyes are on the Muslims, and the China represents a greater medium-term threat. And may be allied with some of our enemies in the Muslim world, on the sly (Iraqi weapons transfers, etc.).

Bump!

4 posted on 07/15/2002 3:38:10 PM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: sam_paine
Oh, personally, I believe that their individual interests are not that different from ours.
5 posted on 07/15/2002 3:52:20 PM PDT by vannrox
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To: sam_paine
They will lose.
6 posted on 07/15/2002 3:54:28 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: sam_paine
We know too little about China’s intentions, what they are communicating to their own people, and to us, and we need a far better level of effort.

You convieniently left this quote out of the title.

7 posted on 07/15/2002 4:01:37 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: sam_paine
" Constructive Engagement " is shorthand for " Ai-ee ! Stupid American Running Dog Capitalists and Their Lackeys Dig Their Own Economic Graves ! "
11 posted on 07/15/2002 4:06:52 PM PDT by genefromjersey
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To: sam_paine
We think that Chinese strategic thinking that we have documented in this chapter is cause for concern. The Chinese leadership appears to be fixated on so-called asymmetrical warfare, or silver bullets, surprise weaponry and tactics they call assassin’s mace. We worry that they may be mesmerized by a self-deception that they can prevail in military scenarios with the U.S. on the cheap through such surprise strategies.

Think "Pearl Harbor." The Japanese thought that that surprise attack would take out essentially all our capability to counter their thrust south into the Philippines, Malaya, and Indonesia, and force us to negotiate a peace that would concede Japan hegemony over Asia and the Western Pacific. Their "magic bullet" strategy didn't ultimately work, but it did work long enough to cost us considerable lives and treasure. Let's not let it happen again, no matter how much profit Wal-Mart and other US companies make by business dealings with China.

14 posted on 07/15/2002 4:14:56 PM PDT by Map Kernow
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To: sam_paine; swarthyguy; headsonpikes; ecomcon; FreedomPoster; vannrox; sheik yerbouty
I personally believe that the threat of assymetrical warfare posed by the Chinese is a threat that should be taken quite seriously. And this is for a number of reasons.

First of all assymetrical warfare (AW from now on) has been proven to be a viable mode of war when you need to negate or threaten superior military assets. It worked perfectly in Afghanistan during the 1980s when the CIA helped Usama bin Laden and his fellow mujahadeens (then they were called 'Freedom fighters') fend off Soviet attacks. There they used stinger (and in smaller measures redeye) handhel SAMs to neutralize Soviet helicopter gunships and fighter-bombers. In Vietnam too the Soviets gave 'aid' to the Vietcong by providing sophisticated (for then) SAM systems that wrought havoc on our WildWeasels and other US fighters.

Yet compared to what China is developing today that type of AW was very rudimentary!

There are reports that China has been 'acquring' sophisticated Western and Russian military tech (when i say acquired i mean through direct purchase, indirect purchase, and theft). The following are several examples.

First thing first they have SunBurn missiles! The sunburn is a supersonic missile developed by Russia for one purpose and one purpose only .....destroying American aircraft carriers! They are quite fast, extremely maneuvrable, and able to use a 'ripple effect' where a line of missiles attack at different flight paths, different angles and different speeds, all in a bid to beat the anti-missile defenses of the carrier. China has them.

China also has the J-10 fighter jet, which it developed thanks to the US and Israel! How? The US and Israel were working ona fighter concept called the Lavi which got cancelled in 1987, but somehow some Israeli general decided it was prudent (perhaps financially) to send the prototype details to China. Thus the J-10 was developed.

China also has the J-11 ....which in Russia is known as the Sukhoi-27 Flanker. This is a very advanced jet fighter, ranked better or equal to any western jet (apart from the upcomign F-22 Raptor and possibly the Eurofighter). This Russian jet's specifics were bought by China, and they can now make it indigenously as the J-11. Luckily most Chinese pilots do not seem to be very good pilots and thus have been crashing this very capable jet quite often (LOL) but should they learn how to use it as the Russians do let me just say any American pilot in a F-18 Hornet/SuperHornet will find himself in dire straits!

Plus they got have some Israeli made Python-3 air to air missiles, which are quite advanced (the Python-4 is the best in the world) as well as the Russian R-73 (which by the way is ranked as second best in the ASRAAM category inthe world). Nothing we have can match these missiles that can even be fired laterally from the fighter jet. Some say the also have the R-77 (an extremely advanced AMRAAM) but i personally do not believe the Russians would have sold them such a missile.

China has also been trying to acquire the Shvkal 2 Hypercavitating Rocket torpedo, which travels underwater in an 'envelop' of gases at speeds 4-5 times faster than anything we have. Some say china may have obtained either one of the prototypes of the former Shvkal-1, or working plans of the Shvkal-2.

Then there is the J-12 fighter project that is due for completion a decade from now. The J-12 is a stealth program that utilizes Russian stealth tech (from the Russian stealth prototypes Mig-Mapo 1.42 and the other Russian stealth S-37 Berkerut ...not to be confused with the Su-37 'terminator' which is not stealth). The J-12 is said to be in the same league with the F-22 Raptor and is meant to match it in performance and abilities (although the J-12 will have more gorund attack capabilities).

China has also invested in both the Czech 'Tamara' anti-stealth radar (a relatively rudimentary passive radar suite that can detect stealth aircraft) as well as much more advanced Russian anit-stealth detection devices.

Anyway the purpose of AW for China is not to make them win any wars with the US! Nope, that would never happen because the US is just too strong for China to stop directly. What AW is for is to cause sufficient casualties on the American side to cause the American population back home to reconsider the fight and call back the soldiers. After all China is banking that Americans back here will not let there people die in the protection of Taiwan. Imagine what the populace would do if two aircraft carriers were sunk with all hands on board. There would be many calling for the immediate destruction of China, even using nukes .....but many more would start questioning what American soldiers are doing defending Taiwan and a Vietnam situation would develop where they are calling for immediate withdrawal.

That is why AW by the Chinese should be looked at carefully.

15 posted on 07/15/2002 4:29:23 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: sam_paine
It appears to me that America's hyper-power status -- while comforting to us -- is totally unacceptable to any number of major countries and loose alliances around the world (China, Russia, all of the muslim countries, and even some of our so-called friends in Europe). For our own safety we should be prudent about this and regard them collectively as perfectly capable and treacherous enough to do ANYTHING they think is necessary to do to prevent us from holding onto that distinction much longer.

Each knows he cannot defeat us alone and yet appears fully committed to defanging us somehow, someway, sometime -- but soon. That implies they'll necessarily come around to a secret mega-alliance. And it may already be forming. The EU has has come right out and stated as much: they are determined to dethrone us as the leading economic power in the world. China is working like crazy to build up its military. Russia is unhappy with us. And the unity of muslim opinion amongst countries that normally have little use for one another is another indicator.

I just hope it's only the background static in my tinfoil hat that's causing me to interpret much of the rest of the world's convergence of opinion about us and their increasing hatred for us as a sure prelude to a coordinated surprise attack by the whole lot of them. But I fear it isn't. And that's the real assassin's mace we should be worrying about, imo -- not a blow from one country like a China, but a simultaneous blow from many.

So it makes no sense to me for us to be disposing of our "surplus" nukes at this time. Indeed, this is the worst possible time to do such a thing . . . Just my opinion.

18 posted on 07/15/2002 4:46:20 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: *China stuff; *china_stuff; *Clash of Civilizatio
.
23 posted on 07/15/2002 5:31:29 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: rightwing2; Hopalong; soccer8; Askel5; AM2000; Aaron_A; atc
Bump to you folks!
25 posted on 07/15/2002 6:08:34 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: sam_paine
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/710245/posts

Revelations that the Taliban was working on a telecom surveillance equipment with the help of the Chinese after 9-11

Cyber warfare could possibly qualify as "assassin's mace." Arming a surrogate to attack while China maintains deniability seems consistent with the committee's findings.

31 posted on 07/15/2002 6:44:42 PM PDT by honway
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To: sam_paine
But they're our friends. Nothing to see here, just move along..
32 posted on 07/15/2002 6:46:52 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: sam_paine
The monkey distracts one's attention away from the organ grinder, the true brains of the operation.

This world war has started.
40 posted on 07/15/2002 8:32:58 PM PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: sam_paine
link

Sorry about the re-post. The title change mixed me up.

41 posted on 07/15/2002 9:42:53 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: sam_paine
"We have a huge $80+ billion trade deficit, large flows of investment, R&D, private and public technology to China, as well as substantial funding from U.S. capital markets. U.S. exports of goods to China remain stagnant, while China’s exports to the U.S. are exploding. Our primary exports to China are our manufacturing capacity, R&D, and investment capital, not goods –"
43 posted on 07/15/2002 9:44:21 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: sam_paine
"Assassin's mace" is unnecessary when Fortune 500 will do. China will grow to become the world's biggest economy without even fighting any war just by default and by virtue of the inherent potential of its economy. All this talk of war is a distraction.
55 posted on 07/15/2002 11:12:32 PM PDT by AIG
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To: sam_paine
The Chinese leadership appears to be fixated on so-called asymmetrical warfare, or silver bullets, surprise weaponry and tactics they call assassin’s mace. We worry that they may be mesmerized by a self-deception that they can prevail in military scenarios with the U.S. on the cheap through such surprise strategies.

These perceptions problems are accompanied, in our view, by the steadfast REFUSAL of the Chinese leadership to engage us constructively on the matter of building effective bilateral confidence building institutions and procedures.

Is it just me, or is the juxtaposition of these two thoughts indicative of the Chinese maneuvering to destroy us, not co-exist with us?

60 posted on 07/15/2002 11:29:55 PM PDT by American in Israel
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To: sam_paine
In order for China to effectively fight the US military, they're going to have to buy a lot of hardware. Not weapons per se--the Chinese arsenal has weapons that are at the limits of physical destructiveness--but command and control systems. And doing that is going to put the Chinese government in a very uncomfortable position.

The central key to understanding China's army is the rule "The Party controls the gun." There are political officers down to the company or even platoon level, plus unspecified numbers of informants in the ranks.

There will be two unintended side effects to giving the PLA a modern C2 infrastructure.

The first is that signals intelligence systems will allow the unit commander to keep an eye on the Party operatives.

The second is that, in countries without any history of civil governance based on the rule of law, the first units to get the new commo systems tend to get into mischief. The commanding general of the first division to get this stuff tends to get a new job title: "President for Life." His chief of staff gets a promotion to "Defense Minister."

91 posted on 07/16/2002 11:22:53 AM PDT by Poohbah
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