US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies

Mobilizing the citizenry against a war, getting on alert instances of domestic espionage and sabotague, and even particularly in this 2002 situation with an enemy already on our soil who killed 3000 already!

Alright! Where can we sign up!

We've had the Neighborhood Watch program here for 15 years. They have been real good at spotting crack houses, gang activity and the like. What's the big deal? We need more McCain's

What would Janet Reno done if she had the Patroit Act?

Neighborhood Watch, just like your police and sheriff dept are local. Under LOCAL control. There is a system of accountability to prevent abuse. While it's not always perfect, it does work. Identifying crack houses and gang activity is all well and good, and should be the object of local programs, locally administered.

What happens when the program is oriented in a new direction? When the target is terrorists who are rooted into the community, and we have to mobilize a secret army of informants? Might kids angry at parents turn in daddy for his gun collection, or a liberal teacher turn in a parent for politically incorrect views as repeated by the kid in class?

When such a program...indeed when local police become federalized, such local control and accountability are erased. In such lies the seeds of tyranny. History (I'm a teacher of American History and American Government) is FULL of examples.

McCain is an opportunistic traitor, who has sold his soul to push a Satanic agenda with the reward his heart most desires: power. I actually met him during the miserable Dole campaign, when I was a Republican volunteer. We spoke for quite awhile backstage at a rally, as he waited to go on. At that time, he evinced strong support for the 2nd Amendment. Unconditional support. I'd say something happened to radically change those views, wouldn't you agree? A man who will compromise on such essential and basic American values is not to be trusted. EVER.

Just why doesn't the government profile? Do you think it might be because of the public outcry against being suspicious of someone merely because he is of a certain nationality even though he has done nothing wrong (or at least they have no evidence)?

Now, when they try and get citizens to report any suspicious activity - we again have a public outcry that they are overstepping their boundaries and it should not be necessary. So - don't expect any help from the citizens they are supposed to defend.

Just how are they supposed to find all of these terrorists in the country in the sleeper cells or coming in to mount attacks on us?

Now - when someone in your area is hit with anthrax or a biological disease - just who will be complaining that the government is totally ineffective and is failing in its duty to protect the citizens? Just who will call for investigation after investigation to see where the failure was?

Also - what makes any of you think that there is any desire to investigate innocent people? We are a huge country - not a small country like Germany. Just who is paying all of these investigators to dig into what I look at on the internet. I doubt that anyone would want to waste that time on me - they don't even know I exist or care.

To me - the only ones that should fear government questions would be those who are involved in things they don't want the government to know about. There are probably plenty of shady dealers out there that are up in arms about government invasion of privacy. Privacy to do what? Privacy to continue involvement in shady or illegal activities? Then maybe they should fear the government.

You know? Maybe there will be an increased demand for homes out in the country rather than in the cities; homes with plenty of space around - without neighborhoods. Hm.... might be an opportunity in the making there for real estate investors.

Would allow escape from "watching" neighbors, make it harder for a terrorist to hit that specific home and allow more "privacy" for whatever endeavors are so secretive and need extreme protection from outside eyes.

What would Reno do?

What could she (it) do? Go to your Church and and listen to the sermon... OH GEE. Go to a judge and get a search warrent for a tap on your phone.. They been doing that for years.

“Might kids angry at parents turn in daddy for his gun collection, or a liberal teacher turn in a parent for politically incorrect views as repeated by the kid in class? “

I got some real bad news for you Capt. they can and have been doing this for years so what’s new?

“When such a program...indeed when local police become federalized, such local control and accountability are erased. In such lies the seeds of tyranny.”

A little heavy on the rhetoric there Capt. aren't we? Out of no where we have wiped out our civil and criminal courts and turned the city police in to federal agents.

”McCain is an opportunistic traitor, who has sold his soul to push a Satanic agenda with the reward his heart most desires: power. I actually met him during the miserable Dole campaign, when I was a Republican volunteer. We spoke for quite awhile backstage at a rally, as he waited to go on. At that time, he evinced strong support for the 2nd Amendment. Unconditional support. I'd say something happened to radically change those views, wouldn't you agree? A man who will compromise on such essential and basic American values is not to be trusted. EVER.”

You forgot he also turned on his ex-wife for the rich new model.

This is a huge reaction to a call for nosey neighbors. We'll always have busybodies whether they're government sanctioned or not. And your posts of the old posters show blabbermouths do more harm than good. Sound informants need sound training. We don't need a bunch of crackpots rooting through our garbage. Thanks anyway, though.

Thank you for your post, you put a lot in it, some which I agree and others disagree. Can't post in detail right now but let me get back to this thread later!

I've already been contacted to act as a domestic spy. My job is to monitor FR for seditious speech. So far, I've ratted out _Jim and Illbay to the feds. Was I bad?

I really don't know how to answer you as I just can't get my mind around the fact someone might not believe personal freedom is the most important thing in this country. It might be, as my daughter says, just an illusion. Actually, if someone can take it away this easily, it is not mine - so she might be right.

The non-profiling behavior of our government should tell everyone that they are not serious in learning about terrorists. If you thinkt he ACLU is screaming about profiling on airplanes, causing Granny and her fingernail file to be suspect, just want until the government actually gets some tips on possible terrorists. We will be back to checking our Granny. Profiling is and has always been a proper tool in law enforcement. It is just ludicrous not to use it.

One of your statements seem to say that anyone who has misgivings about this program has 'something to hide'. That is the mentality that frightens me. That is really an attitude beyond my understanding. The same statement speaks of persons doing 'shady' things. That admits there is the possibility of many things, not just homeland security might be at work here. The only 'shady' thing I am involved in at the moment is my flower beds - there are millions of me out there who just believe our business is just that our business.

When our country begins to do just the most basic things a country does when it is threatened (close borders, deport ones who should not be there, and check out the ones who fit the profile - yes PROFILE of the ones posing the threats) - then I will believe our government actually has the security of this nation at heart. Until they do this, we can only assume the new programs are aimed at others than the terrorists.

AS for the second post regarding doing things out of the protection of outside eyes - that is pure and simple an insult and there is no answer to that kind of attack. I am assuming you did not intend it as such but that attitude just points out the problems with this and the possibilities, or probabilities, of abuse.

I maintain my stance that local control must be kept in the hands of local citizens....and not subject to federal "guidelines."

I'll tell you something...waaaay back when my kid was in elementary school, she came skipping into my study chirping: "Daddy, guess what? Teacher asked us today if we knew anything about guns...and if you owned any assault rifles. She was telling us how bad those things are. I didn't tell her you taught me to shoot the AR15 last week!"

Needless to say, I had a little "conference" with said teacher and let her know that as a teacher myself, I knew she was violating both the contract and the letter of the law and she'd better lay off! Never heard another word. It helped I'm sure that the principal was pretty pro-gun himself. Not so unusual at that time...a rarity now.

"You forgot he also turned on his ex-wife for the rich new model."

Any man's personal business in regards to his wife...even in the case of Bill and Hillary, is his own business and nobody elses business. I take exception to the Clinton dalliances while on the job and actually IN the Oval Office, but if he wants to fool around, it's only for God to judge him.

We may act as citizens volunteer minute men informants. However if coordinating with friends and colleagues, are we not acting as a citizen militia, in and of itself grounds to be reported to authorities by others?

"are we not acting as a citizen militia..."

I think the key word here is "militia" implying some form of martial aspect if not a direct implication that weapons may be involved. That being the case, every time a group of buddies be they coworkers or family go DEER HUNTING the FBI gets involved.

If that is the case, forget it...we're in a very real police state scenario already. Under your theory, Free Republic also qualifies. Of course we probably have an entire NSA staff to monitor us! Also under your theory, any church meeting be it for FINANCE or PRAYER would also qualify...take it as far as you like....

Extremely well said and I agree with you 1000%

This kind of culture in action:

Political dissent can bring federal agents to door

By Kris Axtman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

HOUSTON - It was 10:30 a.m. on Nov. 7 when the two men showed up.

Donna Huanca was alone, getting ready to open Houston's Art Car Museum. "They looked like robots," she says.



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Is the FBI acting properly in investigating reports of "anti-american activity?"

She told the men, dressed in dark suits and carrying leather portfolios, that they would have to wait until the doors opened at 11. That was when they flipped out their badges: They were federal agents investigating reports of "anti-American activity" at the tiny art gallery.

To FBI special agent Terrence Donahue and Steven Smith of the Secret Service, it was a routine mission to check out one of the more than 435,000 tips they have received since Sept. 11.

To Ms. Huanca, whose gallery was opening "Secret Wars," an exhibit on US covert operations and government secrets, it was something else. "What's anti-American about freedom of speech?" the docent blurted out.

The incident, which ended after an hour of questioning, represents more than just a disturbing day for one museum staffer. Across the US, growing numbers of Americans are facing similar interrogations - apparently, they say, because they have criticized the government, President Bush, or the war on terrorism.

Not everyone is bothered by the inquiries. Indeed, by responding to a torrent of tips federal agents are doing exactly what many Americans want them to do.

But as the nation mounts a zealous campaign against domestic terror, some observers say federal agencies are walking a delicate line between checking out leads and trampling on free speech.

"If the FBI is investigating art exhibits at museums, then the line has been crossed," says First Amendment scholar David Cole at Georgetown University in Washington. "The FBI should investigate any credible leads where federal criminal activity may be undertaken. But it should avoid investigating any political conduct."

The rise in doorstep inquiries reflects, in part, a new law-enforcement reality. Suddenly, it may seem hard to know who might be the next to steer a plane into a building. It also reflects raw math. There are simply many more tips to check.

"Remarks made toward the president in an antagonistic way are checked out by the Secret Service. That's always been the case," says Jill Spillman, an FBI agent detailed to the Justice Department. "The FBI checks out [possible] domestic terrorism." She says the people visited are under no obligation to answer questions and are not necessarily viewed as suspects.

But Attorney General John Ashcroft's post-September policy is that each tip be looked into. While not every tip leads to a face-to-face visit, surprise encounters with federal agents are leaving some Americans feeling their privacy has been violated - and that their speech has made them targets of official scrutiny.

For example, A.J. Brown, a student at Durham Technical Community College in North Carolina, faced 40 minutes of grilling by two Secret Service agents and a Raleigh police officer in her doorway (she wouldn't let them come in, and they had no search warrant). By her account, they said they were investigating a tip that she had "un-American material" in her apartment. From the doorway, they took particular note of a poster of George W. Bush holding a noose. It read: "We hang on your every word," referring to his unflinching support of the death penalty as governor of Texas.

Then there's San Franciscan Barry Reingold, who was awakened from his afternoon nap by a buzzing intercom on Oct. 23. He called down to the street to find out who it was. "The FBI," was the response. He buzzed the two men up, but decided to meet them in the hall. "I was a little bit shaken up," says Mr. Reingold. "I mean, why would the FBI be interested in me, a 60-year-old retired phone company worker?"

When they asked if he worked out at a certain gym, he realized the reason behind the visit. The gym is where he lifts weights - and expounds on his political views.

Since Sept. 11, the sessions have been heated. Once, he recalls, "discussion turned to [Osama] bin Laden and what a horrible murderer he was. I said, 'Yeah, he's horrible and did a horrible thing, but Bush has nothing to be proud of. He is a servant of the big oil companies, and his only interest in the Middle East is oil.' "

Some fellow weightlifters called Reingold a disloyal American. One, apparently, called the government.

So it was that two agents were standing in his hall. "They said, 'You know you are entitled to freedom of speech.' And I said, 'Thank you. That ends our conversation.' " When Reingold closed his door, he heard one of the agents say: "But we still need to do a report."

As the overheard comment suggests, the FBI and Secret Service view many of these checkups as a routine, almost innocuous, part of their job.

Still, the task has taken on fresh relevance after the terrorist attacks.

"Just because we [talked] to ABC Flight School doesn't mean they did something wrong," says Robert Doguim of the Houston FBI. "But how irresponsible of us would it be if we didn't talk to someone?"

He says the Art Car Museum and its exhibit (which had been planned months before Sept. 11) were deemed "not dangerous" after the agents' visit.

But to Huanca, the face-off seemed unnecessary and intimidating. She says the G-men puzzled over each art installation, sneering and saying things like, "What's that supposed to mean?"

Drawing conclusions from cases like this is tricky, since the reality could involve more, or less, than either side tells the media. But Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Washington, finds the anecdotal evidence deeply troubling.

"All of this speaks to the new McCarthyism, where political dissent is being equaled to treason," Mr. Steinhardt says. "It's a very frightening trend: that people are doing nothing more than expressing the very freedoms that we are fighting to preserve - and find themselves with the FBI at their door."

The link

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0108/p1s4-usju.html