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Don't Fatwa Me
Mercurial Times ^ | June 24, 2002 | Anna Zetchus Raetz

Posted on 06/26/2002 4:31:38 AM PDT by FormerLurker

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To: toddst
Commissioner Kelly is a fool, to be moderately blunt.

Quite true. But then again, he does get his directives from NYC's "public officials"..

What's interesting is the good Rabbi has more NYPD officers in Brooklyn because of his "threat" than anyone has seen in years - if ever. "Kelly's Cops" are protecting the Jewish communities, whether they want to or not.

Problem is, instead of looking for REAL terrorists, they're out patrolling the streets on the lookout for a 'Rabbi with a gun'.

21 posted on 06/26/2002 6:48:42 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
Call me an American idealist, but the word 'vigilante' has always been twisted by the radicals to fit their smear agenda.

To me, vigilantes are the people who raid the local jailhouse to accomodate those who apparently need stringing up -- not honest citizens who accept the task of self-preservation . . .

If you search the "Wall Street Journal" (early 80's) you'll find an article which describes good samaritans with 'illegal' sidearms in NYC who, like 'Zorro', appear suddenly to foil bad men, then 'dissapear' into the crowd. These responsible armed (albeit contrary to NYC regs.) citizens were credited with making the streets safer for the residents of the city -- and probably still do.

22 posted on 06/26/2002 6:50:39 AM PDT by Crowcreek
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To: toddst
There is another cure for this illness - being mugged and injured. Works most every time!

Many times those with this disease will cry out for even MORE gun control, as if it'd do any good. Criminals have guns, and they're more apt to use them in a crime if they think their victim will be disarmed.

23 posted on 06/26/2002 6:51:55 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
Criminals have guns, and they're more apt to use them in a crime if they think their victim will be disarmed.

I saw a great article about the 'Sullivan Law' in the NRA magazine, which attributed the original NYC handgun ban to a city official from the 'canal district(?)', under pressure from the criminals in his area to make it easier for them to mug strangers!

I wish I had saved the article -- it was serious and well-documented. I think the title was " The Sullivan Law" (American Rifleman).

24 posted on 06/26/2002 7:05:56 AM PDT by Crowcreek
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To: FormerLurker
Making sense with AnnaZ, great article.
25 posted on 06/26/2002 7:20:42 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: FormerLurker
A whole lot of NYMBY going on. It's one thing to view violence on tv while taking comfort knowing it's happening in some other country and yet, something else again when imagining it could happen here.

I doubt they could sustain attacks in this country by their Billy-bomb-Ladens as they are seriously out-numbered, and, well, you just don't want to mess with Roy Rodgers.

26 posted on 06/26/2002 7:30:14 AM PDT by budwiesest
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To: Crowcreek
These responsible armed (albeit contrary to NYC regs.) citizens were credited with
making the streets safer for the residents of the city -- and probably still do.


As I've been in numerous rural areas of the USA and noticed a wide spectrum of
civic peace, I've often wondered if the calm and orderly towns were just the
ones that might have a covert vigilance committee. E.G., although there's no spoken
public knowledge of such activity, the criminal element either knows to stay the
heck away...and those who happen by either realize to move along quickly or just "vanish".

I'm not endorsing such activity...but wonder if it doesn't happen now and then.
And that the press/local guvmint suppresses publicity.
27 posted on 06/26/2002 7:48:12 AM PDT by VOA
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To: FormerLurker
And meet the Rabbi Yakove Lloyd, founder and president of the Jewish Defense Group (JDG).
A religious Jew. A concerned Jew. A Jew that hasn't forgotten.


Almost a lock that he's not a tenured university professor!

More of these guys (like from www.jpfo.org) need to get some interview time with
Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, or Hugh Hewitt.
28 posted on 06/26/2002 7:51:40 AM PDT by VOA
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To: FormerLurker
Problem is, instead of looking for REAL terrorists, they're out patrolling the streets on the lookout for a 'Rabbi with a gun'.

While that may be true, all those cop cars are intimidating to would-be terrorists AND the common street-thug.

Obviously what would be preferable is a cooperative effort deveped between the good Rabbi and the NYPD. Doubt Commissioner "I'm in charge" Kelly would allow such a common-sense approach. But then again, this is really up to NYC citizens and what they'll demand. Locally, we often get the government we deserve IMHO.

29 posted on 06/26/2002 7:54:11 AM PDT by toddst
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To: Crowcreek
I saw a great article about the 'Sullivan Law' in the NRA magazine, which attributed the original NYC handgun ban to a city official from the 'canal district(?)', under pressure from the criminals in his area to make it easier for them to mug strangers!

I haven't been able to find that article, but I did find a bit of info on the Sullivan Law..

From Gun Control: White Man's Law

Attempts to regulate the possession of firearms began in the northern states during the early part of the 20th century, and although these regulations had a different focus from those that had been concocted in the South, they were no less racist and elitist in effect or intent. Rather than trying to keep handguns out of the price range that blacks and the poor could afford, New York's trend-setting Sullivan Law, enacted in 1911, required a police permit for legal possession of a handgun. This law made it possible for the police to screen applicants for permits to posses handguns, and while such a requirement may seem reasonable, it can and has been abused.

Members of groups not in favor with the political establishment or the police are automatically suspect and can easily be denied permits. For instance, when the Sullivan Law was enacted, southern and eastern European immigrants were considered racially inferior and religiously and ideologically suspect. (Many were Catholics or Jews, and a disproportionate number were anarchists or socialists.) Professor L. Kennett, coauthor of the authoritative history *The Gun in America*, has noted that the measure was designed to "strike hardest at the foreign-born element," particularly Italians. Southern and eastern European immigrants found it almost impossible to obtain gun permits.

Over the years, application of the Sullivan Law has become increasingly elitist as the police seldom grant handgun permits to any but the wealthy or the politically influential. A beautiful example of this hypocritical elitism is the fact that while the *New York Times* often editorializes against the private possession of handguns, the publisher of that newspaper, Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, has a hard-to-get permit to own and carry a handgun. Another such permit is held by the husband of Dr. Joyce Brothers, the pop psychologist who has claimed that firearms ownership is indicative of male sexual inadequacy.

30 posted on 06/26/2002 7:55:55 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: Crowcreek
I did find an article which mentions the Sullivan Law, and it had actually been reprinted in 'The American Rifleman' back in 1926...

Editor's note: MSRPA member Jack Tishue brought the following to DownRange's attention. It is a copyrighted article by H. L. Mencken originally published in 1925 (during Prohibition) by The Evening Sun (where Mencken was editor at the time) and reprinted in the March 1, 1926 issue of The American Rifleman.

THE UPLIFTERS TRY IT AGAIN

by H. L. Mencken
(Copyright, 1925, by The Evening Sun. Republication without credit not permitted.)

I.

The eminent Nation announces with relish "the organization of a national committee of 100 to induce Congress to prohibit the inter-State traffic in revolvers," and offers the pious judgement that it is "a step forward." "Crime statistics," it appears, "show that 90% of the murders that take place are committed by the use of the pistol, and every year there are hundreds of cases of accidental homicides because someone did not know that his revolver was loaded." The new law or is it to be a constitutional amendment? will do away with all that. "It will not be easy," of course, "to draw a law that will permit exceptions for public officers and bank guards" to say nothing of Prohibition agents and other such legalized murderers. "But soon even these officials may get on without revolvers."

More than once in this place, I have lavished high praise upon the Nation. All that praise has been deserved, and I am by no means disposed to go back on it. The Nation is one of the few honest and intelligent periodicals published in the United States. It stands clear of official buncombe; it prints every week a great mass of news that the newspapers seem to miss; it interprets that news with a freedom and a sagacity that few newspaper editors can even so much as imagine. If it shut up shop then the country would plunge almost unchallenged into the lowest depths of Coolidgism, Rotarianism, Stantaquaism and other such bilge. It has been for a decade past, the chief consolation of the small and forlorn minority of civilized Americans.

But the Nation, in its days, has been a Liberal organ, and its old follies die hard. Ever and anon, in the midst of its most eloquent and effective pleas for Liberty, its eye wanders weakly toward Law. At such moments the old lust to lift 'em up overcomes it, and it makes a brilliant and melodramatic ass of itself. Such a moment was upon it when it printed the paragraph that I have quoted. Into that paragraph of not over 200 words it packed as much maudlin and nonsensical blather, as much idiotic reasoning and banal moralizing, as Dr. Coolidge gets into a speech of two hours' length.

II.

The new law that it advocated, indeed, is one of the most absurd specimens of jackass legislation ever heard of, even in this paradise of legislative donkeyism. Its single and sole effect would be to exaggerate enormously all of the evils it proposes to put down. It would not take pistols out of the hands of rogues and fools; it would simply take them out of the hands of honest men. The gunman today has great advantages everywhere. He has artillery in his pocket, and he may assume that, in the large cities, at least two-thirds of his prospective victims are unarmed. But if the Nation's proposed law (or amendment) were passed and enforced, he could assume safely that all of them were unarmed.

Here I do not indulge in theory. The hard facts are publicly on display in New York State, where a law of exactly the same tenor is already on the books the so-called Sullivan Law. In order to get it there, of course, the Second Amendment had to be severely strained, but the uplifters advocated the straining unanimously, and to the tune of loud hosannas, and the courts, as usual, were willing to sign on the dotted line. It is now a dreadful felony in New York to "have or possess" a pistol. Even if one keeps it locked in a bureau drawer at home, one may be sent to the hoosegow for ten years. More, men who have done no more are frequently bumped off. The cops, suspecting a man, say, of political heresy, raid his house and look for copies of the Nation. They find none, and are thus baffled but at the bottom of a trunk they do find a rusted and battered revolver. So he goes to trial for violating the Sullivan Law, and is presently being psycho-analyzed by the uplifters at Sing Sing.

With what result? With the general result that New York, even more than Chicago, is the heaven of footpads, hijackers, gunmen and all other such armed thugs. Their hands upon their pistols, they know they are safe. Not one citizen out of a hundred that they tackle is armed for getting a license to keep a revolver is a difficult business, and carrying one without it is more dangerous than submitting to robbery. So the gunmen flourish and give humble thanks to God. Like the bootleggers, they are hot and unanimous for Law Enforcement.

III.

To all this, of course, the uplifters have a ready answer. (At having ready answers, indeed, they always shine!) The New York thugs, they say, are armed to the teeth because New Jersey and Connecticut lack Sullivan Laws. When one of them wants a revolver all he has to do is to cross the river or take a short trolley trip. Or, to quote the Nation, he may "simply remit to one of the large firms which advertise the sale of their weapons by mail." The remedy is the usual dose: More law. Congress is besought to "prohibit the inter-State traffic in revolvers, especially to bar them from the mails."

It is all very familiar, and very depressing. Find me a man so vast an imbecile that he seriously believes that this prohibition would work. What would become of the millions of revolvers already in the hands of the American people if not in New York, then at least everywhere else? (I own two and my brother owns at least a dozen, though neither of us has fired one since the close of the Liberty Loan drives.) Would the cops at once confiscate this immense stock, or would it tend to concentrate in the hands of the criminal classes? If they attempted confiscation, how would they get my two revolvers lawfully acquired and possessed without breaking into my house? Would I wait for them docilely or would I sell out, in anticipation, to the nearest pistol bootlegger?

The first effect of the enactment of such a law, obviously, would be to make the market price of all small arms rise sharply. A pistol which is now worth, second-hand, perhaps $2, would quickly reach a value of $10 or even $20. This is not theorizing; we have had plenty of experience with gin. Well, imagining such prices to prevail, would the generality of men surrender to the Polizei, or would they sell them to the bootleggers? And if they sold them to the bootleggers, what would become of them in the end: would they fall into the hands of honest men or into the hands of rogues?

IV.

But the gunmen, I take it, would not suffer from the high cost of artillery for long. The moment the price got really attractive, the cops themselves would begin to sell their pistols, and with them the whole corps of Prohibition blacklegs, private detectives, deputy sheriffs, and other such scoundrels. And smuggling, as in the case of alcoholic beverages, would become an organized industry, large in scale and lordly in profits. Imagine the supplies that would pour over the long Canadian and Mexican borders! And into every port on every incoming ship!

Certainly, the history of the attempt to enforce Prohibition should give even uplifters pause. A case of whisky is a bulky object. It must be transported on a truck. It can not be disguised. Yet in every American city today a case of whisky may be bought almost as readily as a pair of shoes despite all the armed guards along the Canadian border, and all the guard ships off the ports, and all the raiding, snooping and murdering everywhere else. Thus the camel gets in and yet the proponents of the new anti-pistol law tell us that they will catch the gnat! Go tell it to the Marines!

Such a law, indeed, would simply make gun-toting swagger and fashionable, as Prohibition has made guzzling swagger and fashionable. When I was a youngster there were no Prohibition agents; hence I never so much as drank a glass of beer until I was nearly 19. Today, Law Enforcement is the eighth sacrament and the Methodist Board of Temperance, Prohibition and Public Morals is itself the authority for the sad news that the young of the land are full of gin. I remember, in my youth, a time when the cops tried to prohibit the game of catty. At once every boy in Baltimore consecrated his whole time and energy to it. Finally, the cops gave up their crusade. Almost instantly catty disappeared.

V.

The real victim of moral legislation is almost always the honest, law-abiding, well-meaning citizen what the late William Graham Summer called the Forgotten Man. Prohibition makes it impossible for him to take a harmless drink, cheaply and in a decent manner. In the same way the Harrison Act puts heavy burdens upon the physician who has need of prescribing narcotic drugs for a patient, honestly and for good ends. But the drunkard still gets all the alcohol that he can hold, and the drug addict is still full of morphine and cocaine. By precisely the same route the Nation's new law would deprive the reputable citizen of the arms he needs for protection, and hand them over to the rogues that he needs protection against.

Ten or fifteen years ago there was an epidemic of suicide by bichloride of mercury tablets. At once the uplifters proposed laws forbidding their sale, and such laws are now in force in many States, including New York. The consequences are classical. A New Yorker, desiring to lay in an antiseptic for household use, is deprived of the cheapest, most convenient and most effective. And the suicide rate in New York, as elsewhere, is still steadily rising.


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31 posted on 06/26/2002 8:00:53 AM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
Hey, Thanks -- I liked this part : 'Another such permit is held by the husband of Dr. Joyce Brothers, the pop psychologist who has claimed that firearms ownership is indicative of male sexual inadequacy. ' [*snicker*]

I'm going to find my article if it kills me ; I had it kicking around for years in a pile of old magazines . . .

Gotta get busy now -- headed for Kalifornya, and I've got to lock up the Glock and dig out the old wheelgun and 'lock-box' . . .

32 posted on 06/26/2002 8:07:40 AM PDT by Crowcreek
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To: FormerLurker; Travis McGee; Squantos; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Clovis_Skeptic; Shermy
Thanks for the post.

This paragraph says all that is necessary for any sane American: Personally, as a Christian, I'm beginning to "get it". A training video recovered from an Afghani Al Qaeda base shows heavily armed terrorists practicing the fine art of entering homes and shooting the inhabitants, in this case mannequins, mannequins with crosses painted on their chests. (But the real dummies are those who don't take these kinds of visuals seriously.)

Those were not Stars of David taped on those dummies.

Is any more data, for anyone who is not Jewish, needed for a reality call? I think this is enough for most of us!

American Christians are as much of a target of these Islamic Psycho's from Hell, as our Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel and here.

33 posted on 06/26/2002 8:42:51 AM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~
The NCJW stinks (http://www.ncjw.org/). Mostly they're a pro-abort group, so the fact that they are anti-choice in self-defense doesn't surprise me at all, it seems to be a contingent cause.
 
My favorite quote of theirs (which can be found posted here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/659481/posts):
The widening crusade to add the slogan "Choose Life" to auto tags received a boost last week when a federal appeals court dismissed a challenge to a Louisiana program that uses $25 from each specialty license plate sold to help fund adoptions.
...
The decision ends separate lawsuits by groups that accused Louisiana of unconstitutionally sanctioning religion and infringing on their free-speech rights. Complainants included a group of taxpayers, Planned Parenthood and the National Council of Jewish Women, which charged the law advances "Christian fundamentalism."
Of course, "Choose life" appears in the Book of Deuteronomy, the fifth book of what the Jews call the Torah, their most sacred scriptures.

34 posted on 06/26/2002 8:56:34 AM PDT by AnnaZ
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To: philman_36
And this shikse loves a .45!
 
;^)

35 posted on 06/26/2002 8:58:43 AM PDT by AnnaZ
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To: FormerLurker
What she fails to realize is that NYC PROHIBITS CONCEALED CARRY for common citizens. It is precisely why her son was shot and killed, as the criminals who walk the streets of NYC have no fear of being shot due to the fact that most if not all citizens there are unarmed.
 
The Blecccchs are aware. They just don't care. Perhaps their grief will be alleviated when no one, no where, at no time can escape their son's fate.
 
Trust me on this, I debated her husband: TKO-Liberty Belles Trounce "Million Moms"

36 posted on 06/26/2002 9:04:36 AM PDT by AnnaZ
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To: FormerLurker
Excellent article! Thanks for the ping...........FRegards
37 posted on 06/26/2002 9:11:41 AM PDT by gonzo
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~; FormerLurker; toddst
from http://www.jpfo.org/: A Psychiatrist explains "Raging Against Self Defense" (Why gun prohibitionists act the way they do) -- an essay by Sarah Thompson, M.D.

38 posted on 06/26/2002 9:22:46 AM PDT by AnnaZ
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To: AnnaZ
And this shikse loves a .45!
>>>assuming "Quigley Down Under" role<<<
This sheygets never said he couldn't use a .45. {;^) /QDU
39 posted on 06/26/2002 9:28:11 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: FormerLurker
Thanks for the ping.

Seems like the country is becomming a Balkanized war daily. Those who have a higher allegiance to another country are increasing at warp speed. The melting pot needs mending. Foreign entanglements are a plague. We spent the last century in foreign wars in foreign lands. Now we are importing the foreign wars here. Another George Washington, where are you?

40 posted on 06/26/2002 9:31:11 AM PDT by ex-snook
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