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Wednesday, June 19, 2002

In 1813....Jefferson rejected the deity of Christ

Anyone know the source of that claim?

bump

I would like to know what Jefferson would say, about mullahs and amams, inciting against the United States of America, at mosques in America (or in private meetings).

My understanding of history is that whatever "separation" was built into the Constitution, was to prevent government imposition of a state religion, and to let people freely practice their various faiths, free of government restriction. They are ALL, after all, THE ENEMY.

While founded on historical Judeo-Christian legacies in laws, the US was not to be a solely Christian state (contrary to what some fundamentalists say).

Back to the mullahs--would the concept of free practice of religions go so far as to incitement? Or should the mullahs be locked up, as terrorist supporters (my view)?

In other words, does "religion" provide some sort of legal imunity? I don't think so. Lock them up, under special wartime provisions. Just like Padilla. And just like Lindh SHOULD have been.

Kennedy bump! Kennedy is a religious scholar well known for his exhaustive research.

Thomas Jefferson had very peculuar beliefs for a Christian....

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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Peter Carr, 10 Aug. 1787. (original capitalization of the word god is retained per original)
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp July 30, 1816, denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity and suggesting it to be so riddled in falsehood that only an authoritarian figure could decipher its meaning and, with a firm grip on people's spiritual and mental freedoms, thus convince the people of its truthfulness
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"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition" Christianity, from by John E. Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"
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"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823, quoted from James A. Haught, Breaking the Last Taboo (1996)
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"We find in the writings of his biographers ... a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to William Short, August 4, 1822, referring to Jesus's biographers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
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"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr
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"My aim in that was, to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers, which have exposed him to the inference of being an impostor. For if we could believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind, that he was an impostor. I give no credit to their falsifications of his actions and doctrines, and to rescue his character, the postulate in my letter asked only what is granted in reading every other historian.... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, August 4, 1820, explaining his reason for compiling the Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus and referring to Jesus's biographers, the Gospel writers.

GREAT POST.

IT SHOULD HELP CONFUSE THE DELIBERATELY CONFUSED SOME MORE. . . given their aversion to real truth.

Tom Jefferson Bump

The problem with most analyses of Jefferson's purported "rejection" of Christianity center around his real rejection of what can be called the "institutional church" and the flawed individuals and institutions who have spoken for it across the centuries, including people like Dr. Kennedy, who "concludes" that Jefferson was not a "Christian" (shorthand for "not a person who subscribed to the dogma or myths of any particular institutional church").

Jefferson, on the other hand, called himself a "real Christian," and referred to Jesus in a letter to Madison as "our saviour."

Jefferson clearly asserted that he believed that if the philosophy of Jesus (as expressed in words recorded as coming from Jesus' mouth) became the motivating force within the hearts of individuals throughout the world, a benevolent and peaceful society could be the result.

Given the state of relations between individuals and nations today, could he have been onto something here?

Further, is it just remotely possible that a current leader--ridiculed and maligned by the liberals for his debate response identifying Jesus as his favorite political philosopher--is it just possible that he, too, may have shared Jefferson's enthusiasm for the potential of a "heart" understanding of the philosophy of Jesus?

VIP.

Jefferson's skepticism was directed against the clergy, not against Faith in the Creator. His very act establishing religious freedom in Virginia makes repeated references to the Creator in justification for its enactment, referring specifically at one point to the Creator as the "author of our religion." You cannot get any clearer than that. Jefferson was far more proud of that act than of having been President. The point is not debatable, but then the ACLU has never been about the pursuit of truth or liberty. (See Leftwing Word Games & Religious Freedom.)

The hardest thing to bear is having to restrain one's anger at the many ways that the Left has betrayed America. When we get angry, we cease to be persuasive, and actually play into their hands. But once your realize that the Left is all about lies in a war against reality, you have to struggle. You really do.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

"Jefferson's outlook on religion and government is more fully revealed in another 1802 letter in which he wrote that he did not want his administration to be a "government without religion," but one that would "strengthen … religious freedom."

What could possibly strengthen religious freedom more than keeping the government from getting involved in it?

If this were guns, or taxes, I imagine the arguments here would be to keep the government out....

TJ Ping

Bump for later reading.

bttt