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Posted on 06/03/2002 9:41:43 PM PDT by Alabama_Wild_Man
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These boys will learn the true ideals of America: that a real man, a scout, is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. That a real man, on his honor, will do his do his best to do his duty to God and HIS COUNTRY and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep himself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight..
Only those who are ignorant of the legacy of Scouting would deride these boys.
I know your post wasn't addressed to me, but I wouldn't deride any scout or scout program. I know there are scouting programs all over the world. I just didn't know there was such a variety of scouting programs in America. FYI.
A lot of us who are Scouters know how much the Boy Scouts have been attacked for standing by their principles - it hurts to think that we would yet again be attacked for doing what we have always done.
I found scouting to be a benefit. Enough to earn Eagle Scout. FYI, the Mormon Church adopted scouting as the preferred program for training young men in proper principles and values. A completely separate program is offered for the Young Women because no suitable equivalent is available outside the church.
Scouting is great. Islam is not.
Scouting teaches principles. Islam teaches "anything goes" in the furtherance of their faith, including the duty to kill all infidels. Not my opinion, it's in their Koran.
The many diverse religions that sponsor troops don't advocate killing everyone not of their faith. I sure don't remember seeing any Thuggee cult troops at the camporees.
The teachings of Islam as written in the Koran principles conflict too much with the principles of Scouting. Thankfully, Scouting didn't bend to the demands of the homosexual and atheist lobbies. However, the muslims will twist and pervert a good thing into an even worse mutilation than those groups.
Just think, a madras that also teaches woodcraft, so when they decide to attack, they will (try to) know the hills as well as we do.
Islam is a peaceful religion though, so what's to worry?
One should not ever accept what someone says at face value. Back in '63, we in the West were pretty ignorant concerning the nature of Hinduism and Islam. During the '80's however, as Hinduism, masquerading as the New Age Movement, began to infiltrate the West, and the Church, people, Christains mostly, began to take a close look at these Eastern religious cults and realized too late the danger they represented to the West.
Most Hindus are pantheists (although, they can also be athiests), worshipping some 15,000 different deities. Central to Hindu beliefs are the Eternal Wheel of Samsara (Life), Reincarnation, Transmigration (the movement of the soul from one body to another), Maya (all reality is an illusion), and Karma. The Hindu practices Yoga which is used to allow the atman (immortal soul) to escape the endless reincarnations dictated by Karma, and link with Brahman (the supreme Hindu deity). That is how salvation is achieved for the Hindu.
Islam is monotheistic, but the deity is not the G-d of the Bible, but one of a plethoria of gods which the Arabs worshipped in the pre-Islamic days. Allah is the moon-god, whose image was found in the Ka'ba at Mecca.
The Western principles which are embraced by scouting are incompatable with this sort of religious pluralism. To attempt to make such a connection is just as blasphemous biblically, as President Bush, professing Christianity, inviting Islamic clerics into the White House to join with them in the worship of their diety, and then proclaiming that Allah and G-d are one in the same.
Consequently, if everyone is being true and faithful to their beliefs, then Hindus and Muslums could not honor the traditions and principles of scouting because those same principles embrace the Judeo-Christian concept of G-d. I don't believe that Mr. Beard had blasphemy in mind back in '63, but today, we know better, and should act accordingly.
Of course it is. They worship the God of Abraham but disagree on whom he offered for sacrifice, they believe it was Ishmael instead of Isaac. You’re simply wrong.
Consequently, if everyone is being true and faithful to their beliefs, then Hindus and Muslums could not honor the traditions and principles of scouting because those same principles embrace the Judeo-Christian concept of G-d.
They’re being faithful to the God of Abraham when they pledge their “Duty to God” in the Scout Oath. I do question how Buddhism isn’t atheism but as long as they pledge their “Duty to God” I’m not sure you can say they’re not in conflict with the traditions and principles of Scouting. Scouting recognizes worship of the same God. There is but one leader, although many ways of following Him, and it’s been that way since the Baden-Powell and James West.
The attributes of Allah are not those of the G-d of Abraham. To say that black is white does not make it so.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from truth, and shall be turned unto fables (II Tim 4:3-4).
It is in the Arabic Bible.
Well, I'm not going to get into which Bible or which translation of the Bible is G-d's unadulterated word.
The Judeo-Christian Bible, (Old Testament, New Testament) testifies to G-d's righeousness, holiness, loving and, and forgiving nature, among others which are not in conflict with one another. Allah is portrayed in the Koran and other Muslum writings, as a vengful, hate-filled being, who encourages his followers to either convert or destroy all opposition. Christians and Jews are regarded as almost subhuman. The Islamic path to salvation is diameterically opposed to that presented in the Bible.
No, they are not the same. I could go on and on for hours, citing examples, but as it sounds like you're a Muslum, I won't bother, because you cannot consider any other belief under pain of death.
There’s extremist sects in Islam just as there’s the Arian Nation in the Christian faiths. What you’re citing is a point of view (interpretation) not commensurate with most Muslim teachings. Do Jews need to take literally the banning of shellfish and performance of sacrifice or was it just Mosaic Law and ritual? Was our God a vengeful God when he destroyed Sodom or flooded the earth?
Your interpretations are wrong and I would ask you to look into finding the facts before you proffer anymore anti-Islam untruths.
What does the Bible have to say concerning these Ishmaelites?
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him: and he shall dwell in the presence of all his bretheren.
Genesis 17:12
Well, I'd say that prophecy sure has come to pass. Now, what of those who profess to worshop G-d?
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven;
Matthew 7:21
"Do Jews need to take literally the banning of shellfish and performance of sacrifice or was it just Mosaic Law and ritual?"
Well, let's ask the Source, shall we?
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all"
James 2:14
If they expect to justify themselves before the throne of G-d, yes. One must obey the whole Law to be justified by the Law, for the wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23).
"Was our God a vengeful God when he destroyed Sodom or flooded the earth?"
His wrath tempered by his love, for He provided an Ark to Noah, and two angels for Lot and a promise for Abraham.
"Your interpretations are wrong and I would ask you to look into finding the facts before you proffer anymore anti-Islam untruths."
Okay, is it "peace" or "submission to the will of Allah" that "Islam" represents? Why should we not recognize the root teachings of the Koran in order to learn it's nature? Although I said I wouldn't, I've changed my mind. Let's do a little comparison.
Muhammed says: "Fight and slay the pagans (infidels) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war"
Quran, Sura 9:5
Jesus says: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless and do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use and persecute you;"
Matthew 4:44
Muhammed says: "Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them."
Al Tawbah (The Repentence) Sura 9:73
Jesus says: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:38-39
Muhammad says: "Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and calvery at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy... Prophet, (Muhammed) rouse the faithful to arms! If they (the non-Muslims) incline to peace (accepting Islam) make peace with them.
Al Anfal (The Spoils) Sura 8:59
Jesus says:"... Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Matthew 26:52
Muhammed says: "If they reject your judgement, know that it is Allah's wish to scourge them for their sins.
Al Maidah (The Table) Sura 5:49
Jesus says: "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city. shake the dust off your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city."
Matthew 10:15
"Believers (Muslims), take neither Jews nor Christians to be your friends: they are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number, and God does not guide (those Jewish and Christian) wrongdoers.
Al Maidah (The Table) 5:51 -5:74
Finally, and this came from an Islamic web site:
"There is no god worthy worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger. The declaration of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which all the faithful pronounce. In Arabic, the first part is la ilaha illa'Llah- 'there is no god except God'; ilaha(god) can refer to anything which we may be tempted to put in place of God- wealth, power, and the like. Then comes illa'Llah: 'except God', the source of all Creation. The second part of the Shahada is Muhammadun rasulu'Llah: 'Muhammad is the messenger of God.' A message of guidance has come through a man like ourselves."
Now, the Bible says: Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom G-d raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders which has become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4:10-12
Now this sure looks like we're talking about two entirely different personages. Just as Buddhists are not Christians, worshiping something other than G-d; just as Hindus are not Christians, worshipping many dieties, none of which are G-d, so is Islam not Christian, for Islam revers a man (Muhammad), worships a false god (Allah, the moon god of Arab superstition), believes and preaches the Koran, another gospel:, "But though we, or an angel [Messenger] from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal.1:8-9)
Since Muhammed claims to be a messenger from heaven (First Pillar of Islam), and since he comes preaching a gospel other than that taught by the Apostles (the Koran), then what shall we do with Muhammad? You tell me.
For these, and many more like reasons, I maintain that Islam is incompatable with the Judeo-Christian worldview and organizations which embrace that same worldview. While I believe that the Buddhists and Hindus are wrong in their belief systems, at least they do not pretend to be something they are not. Only Islam does this.
Yep, but for what duration can you read into this passage? You think it means forever? Why would God have instructed Abram to bare Ishmael at the detriment of man? And BTW, I know you meant Genesis 16-12.
Now, what of those who profess to worshop G-d? Matthew 7:21
That’s a reach, to equate it to Islam is ludicrous and not to mention it doesn’t address whether or not they follow the God of Abraham. And BTW, 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
If they expect to justify themselves before the throne of G-d, yes.
My point was one of interpretation, the difference between ritual, ceremonial and moral Mosaic Law were for the time, shellfish doesn’t keep well without refrigeration and the consequences are dire, only moral law in Leviticus is relevant now.
One must obey the whole Law to be justified by the Law, for the wages of sin is death
We’re in for it if we eat shrimp, Jesus gave us a pass on that but it would be hypocritical to expect it from only Jews.
His wrath tempered by his love, for He provided an Ark to Noah, and two angels for Lot and a promise for Abraham.
In other words G-d was vengeful towards the Sodomites.
Since Muhammed claims to be a messenger from heaven (First Pillar of Islam), and since he comes preaching a gospel other than that taught by the Apostles (the Koran), then what shall we do with Muhammad? You tell me.
I don’t know for sure, do you? Be aware of false prophets right? But we weren’t there, nor were we there for Joseph Smith. All I’m saying is if one worships the God of Abraham, we can’t judge whether or not those who will or will not go to heaven. Math 7:1. And as far as the BSA is concerned it’s worship of one creator who has many names.
While I believe that the Buddhists and Hindus are wrong in their belief systems, at least they do not pretend to be something they are not. Only Islam does this.
The Muslims I know believe in Christ and his salvation and purpose. Your interpretation of an infidel is in conflict to the majority of Muslims and is interpreted as one who would bring an end to Islam.
Not in an Orthodox Jewish troop.
Genesis 16:12 makes reference to the tribe (Ishmaelites) that the Arabs are decended from. As for how long they will tend to be wild men; no one can say, except that when an Arab accepts Christ as his personal savior, he becomes part of the body of Christ which is most definitely not a wild man.
Why would G-d have decreed that the Ishmaelites were going to be trouble? Because of Abraham's lack of faith. G-d said that Sarah would bear the son of promise, but Abraham's faith at this time wasn't all it should have been, or he would not have harkened unto Sarah's admonition to have a son by Hagar. It was a judgement against Abraham and his seed; one that G-d uses to this very day, as a demonstration of his soverginty. Oh, I refer to Abram and Sarai as Abraham and Sarah because G-d changed their names in Chapter 17.
"And BTW, I know you meant Genesis 16-12."
If you had any idea what was going on here ... typos are the rule, rather than the exception.
"And BTW, 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged."
I am not judging Islam, but Islam judges itself. Judge not refers to an unfavorable and condemnatory judgement. This does not mean that a Christian should never render judgement of any kind under any circumstances. The New Testament is full of exhortations to 'mark those who cause divisions among you', 'receive not' those who deny Christ, exhort, rebuke, etc.
About the Law of Moses; it was given, not because G-d expects anyone to keep it. He knows better than anyone else that imperfect mankind cannot keep the Law. The sacrifical system was established to teach this very fact. G-d expresses his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, he (Christ) died for us; the only truely acceptable sacrifice to satsify G-d's justice. That's why it's called Grace. We do nothing to deserve it. This concept, this attribute, is absent in the Koran and in the directives of Allah through Muhammed. Grace, to the Muslim, is a foreign concept. Only submission to Allah, with all that goes along with it, can lead one to salvation. There are no guarentees with Allah.
As to what to we do with Muhammad, the Apostle tells us, specifically. You can read the answer for yourself. I quoted the Scripture for you. We should do the same with Joseph Smith too. Anyone who comes with another gospel, different from what the Apostles taught is to be rejected. (Note that I do not reject Mormons as people, only the doctrine -- One of my best friends, someone I hold dear, as a brother, is LDS - we do not tread upon this ground out of personal respect for one another -- but I still pray for him).
"All I’m saying is if one worships the God of Abraham, we can’t judge whether or not those who will or will not go to heaven."
Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father, except through Him (John 14:6). Him is not Mohammad, not the Virgin Mary, not a block of wood. Paul, the Apostle's Apostle, said that only their gospel, that which the Apostles preached, was to be accepted. James wrote: "Thou believest that there is one G-d; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble (James 2:19).
What James is saying here is if you're going to please G-d, then you have to do it His way, or join the ranks of the trembling devils. They believe in G-d too, and that terrifies them.
"The Muslims I know believe in Christ and his salvation and purpose. Your interpretation of an infidel is in conflict to the majority of Muslims and is interpreted as one who would bring an end to Islam."
Look at that; what you wrote. The only way you can reconcile Islam and Christianity, is to reduce Jesus from the only begotten Son of G-d, the Living G-d Incarnate, to some lesser being: a prophet, an angel, an avatar, even Lucifer's brother. Jesus Himself will one day put an end to all religions, Islam included, when He establishes his Kingdom upon the earth.
When I was younger, I experimented for several years with Hundu-like beliefs (New Age Mysticism). Having been delivered from that deception by Jesus, I studied other cult religions, including Islam. They all have a few things in common. They revise definitions to suit their needs. The Son of G-d become an avatar or a prophet. So, "Christian" to the Muslim means something completely different than it does to me. Jesus is, to the Muslim, just a prophet, not G-d in the flesh, the perfect Being. Another commonality is that they all have some leader-figure who has received some special revelation from G-d which others are not privy to. Jim Jones of People's Temple infamy comes to mind. Mohammad also received "special" revelation (the Koran). They all have "rituals" one must participate in, or one risks their "salvation".
Unlike the cults teach, Biblical Christianity teaches that Jesus has done all the work. This is so that no man may boast. No man will stand before G-d and say he did it better than anyone else. All we can do to please G-d, is to accept the salvation Jesus purchased for us, on the Cross. The unforgivable sin that some talk about, is to reject what Jesus has done. The good works a Christian does, come as a result of the working of Jesus in an individual's life, not as a prerequsite to salvation.
Once you understand just what Christianity is, you will be able to see that Islam and Christianity are not compatable. They doen't even come close. Remember this though, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (I Cor. 2:14).
You have to approach G-d by faith, not in yourself, but in Jesus, as His son. If you do this, rest assured that Jesus will never cast you away. You will also understand things clearly, things that may trouble you now, things that Islam has no answers for.
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