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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: stainlessbanner
The only northern states invited to the Montgomery convention were Delaware and Maryland (technically south of the Mason-Dixon line).

They didn't go there to merely discuss political affairs, but rather to convene a constitutional convention.  Convening a constitutional convention to change your form of government and excluding your political enemies is not very good form.  In fact, they didn't follow the forms prescribed for such conventions listed in the U.S. Constitution, so it wasn't done legally.

The only ways open to the south to secede legally was either to get an amendment to the constitution, or by a constitutional convention.  There is no way an amendment would have passed.  The only way a constitutional convention would have worked is by contravening the constitutional rights of northern states.
881 posted on 06/04/2002 10:07:53 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Ohoh, you are doing a railsplit and ignoring Article I, section 10 - you know, the one which limits the powers of the individual states.

You wrote: "Read Article I, clauses 8 & 9 sometime. They are very enlightening, I assure you, as to the powers specifically reserved to the federal government." I was wondering how Arts & sciences, copyrights and patents, the court system, or titles of nobility could apply.

There are only 3 clauses in Section 10. All refer to states within the union, and none prohibit secession.

882 posted on 06/04/2002 10:09:52 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
By seceding, the states are asserting that the supremacy clause is null and void, since they are making a law which is superior to the constitution.

You still don't understand. Nothing prohibits secession, or even sovereign state laws. Unless the Constitution somewhere is delegated the power over secession (or anything else), the US Constitution cannot prohibit secession. Read Hamilton in Federalist 84 for a clue about excersing powers not delegated. He (and other federalists) argued against a Bill of Rights, simply because the federal government had not been delegated the powers over religion, speech, RKBA, individual liberties, civil cases, jury trials, search & seizure &c.

Not to mention the fact that they are also asserting a sovereignty not granted them under the constitution.

Read amendment X. What part of it do you not understand? The states retain EVERYTHING no delegated nor prohibited. The supremacy clause does not delegate or prohibit any powers - it just recognizes that where a power has been delegated, the Constitution is supreme.

883 posted on 06/04/2002 10:21:38 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Take Article I sections 8, 9, & 10 in conjuction with Article VI, clause 2.

The states have cannot legally assume powers denied them in Article I.  Furthermore, the very act of secession puts states laws above the constitution (which is a no-no) since the secession ordinance itself is a state law.
884 posted on 06/04/2002 10:23:34 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
You still don't understand. Nothing prohibits secession, or even sovereign state laws. Unless the Constitution somewhere is delegated the power over secession (or anything else), the US Constitution cannot prohibit secession. Read Hamilton in Federalist 84 for a clue about excersing powers not delegated. He (and other federalists) argued against a Bill of Rights, simply because the federal government had not been delegated the powers over religion, speech, RKBA, individual liberties, civil cases, jury trials, search & seizure &c.

No, it is you who don't understand.  I'm not talking about non-delegated powers - which you keep coming back to.  The delegated powers of the constitution cannot be overthrown by state laws.  Any laws made by a state (including secession ordinances) are subordinate to the constitution.  The individual states could not legally secede because they were still bound by the U.S. Constitution as being the supreme law of the land.  Every state, in their secession ordinances recognized that they had no sovereignty under the Constitution.

They claimed that they could get their sovereignty back because state laws trumped constitutional ones.
885 posted on 06/04/2002 10:34:38 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Non-Sequitur
Ok... Point One: The Supreme Court ruled AFTER the war....not before. (and they STILL can't supercede the Constitution!) Point Two: The Confederacy called for volunteers to defend their soil against invaders AFTER Lincoln called for volunteers to invade the South, which was essentially an act of war. There was no formal declaration from either side! If I remember, there was no f
886 posted on 06/04/2002 10:52:54 AM PDT by TexConfederate1861
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To: Non-Sequitur
Oh Yea: I got you this time Yankee Boy...SHOW ME WHERE that right is spelled out? You won't be able too....John Marshall just assumed that power..... And I wouldn't presume....Too Many of you Yankees think you are Chief Justice and Congress all rolled into one..... Deo Vindice!
887 posted on 06/04/2002 10:55:58 AM PDT by TexConfederate1861
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To: WhiskeyPapa
This whole neo-reb rant will not stand the slightest exposure to the record.

That supposed to be some sort of reply? Sez you.

888 posted on 06/04/2002 10:57:28 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: TexConfederate1861
OK...Point one: Of course the Supreme Court ruled after the war. They couldn't very well rule before the war, could they? The Supreme Court can only rule on the legality of issues that comes before it. It cannot issue advisory issues on actions contemplated by others. And the court did not supercede the Constitution. They ruled that the Constitution does not allow for unilateral secession as practiced by the southern states. Nothing was superceded at all. Point Two: On February 26, 1861 the confederate congress passed legislation funding the raising of an army of 100,000 men for a two year enlistment. That was almost two weeks before Lincoln was inaugurated, a month and a half before Sumter, and created an army 7 or 8 times the size of the remaining United States Army. Who was creating the act of war? An act of war, I might point out, that was formalized by the Davis regime on April 17, 1861. The North never declared war. You don't declare war on a rebellious section of your own country.
889 posted on 06/04/2002 11:02:02 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Well, I have got to hand it to you, you have your Lincolnian catechism of subordination down pat.

Just remember to say "sir" a lot, slave.

Oh, and you're still wrong. Since I've exposed my position repeatedly, and laid out my arguments which you've contradicted merely by saying that the People are now the property of the State -- and asserting the Supremacy Clause as the owner's manual -- then you obviously don't believe in the People, nor democracy, nor for that matter a Republic. For if the People are nothing more than what your state ministers may snap their fingers at, and sic a magistrate on, to make them Go Away in any dispute, then why bother with "representing" them either, but just do as you please instead, as Machiavelli counseled princes to do?

You're what America needs more of: an apologist for despotism. Since we're going to get more and more of it, plusgood duckspeakers will be in demand. Have you considered a career in public affairs?

890 posted on 06/04/2002 11:06:56 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: TexConfederate1861
OK, Article III, Section 2, Clause 22:

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

The legal definition of 'jurisdiction' is the authority to interpret and apply the law within a particular geographic area and/or over certain types of legal cases.

891 posted on 06/04/2002 11:09:56 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: lentulusgracchus
Well, I have got to hand it to you, you have your Lincolnian catechism of subordination down pat.

Along with Hamilton, Madison, Jackson, Buchanon, etc., etc., &etc.

Just remember to say "sir" a lot, slave.

Along with Hamilton, Madison, Jackson, Buchanon, etc., etc., &etc.

Oh, and you're still wrong. Since I've exposed my position repeatedly, and laid out my arguments which you've contradicted merely by saying that the People are now the property of the State -- and asserting the Supremacy Clause as the owner's manual -- then you obviously don't believe in the People, nor democracy, nor for that matter a Republic. For if the People are nothing more than what your state ministers may snap their fingers at, and sic a magistrate on, to make them Go Away in any dispute, then why bother with "representing" them either, but just do as you please instead, as Machiavelli counseled princes to do? You're what America needs more of: an apologist for despotism. Since we're going to get more and more of it, plusgood duckspeakers will be in demand. Have you considered a career in public affairs?

You have a habit of rail splitting and misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) things I've said.  Where did I say that people were property of the state?  I have said that the constitution is the supreme law of the land.  A synonym for "supreme" is "sovereign."  Therefore the constitution is the sovereign law of the land.

It appears that you are under the illusion that we are a democracy.  Not so.  The founding fathers as a whole profoundly mistrusted a democracy.  We are a republic.  As such power that would be vested in the people in a democracy is instead, vested in representatives of the people.

But even beyond that, no people have the right deny the delegated powers, since the constitution is the supreme law of the land.  Such a move is rebellion or insurrection, and Article I section 8 does provide for congress to move against insurrectionists.
892 posted on 06/04/2002 11:50:54 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
So, your idea that the people are sovereign does not bear up under scrutiny since we are not a democracy.

Yes, it does. You just don't want to admit it -- you've got too much riding on the opposed proposition, that the nation's best interests are served by letting oligarchies milk the South and West to feed the Eastern cities. Sorry, you won't get me to buy that.

Your summary argument is a most perfect example of the "consolidation" enthusiasm, as they called it, which the Antifederalists rightly feared in the Federalists.

It was the Antifederalists who wrote, insisted on, and obtained ratification of the Bill of Rights. The BoR modified the concentration of power that the Federalists had, illegally and in direct violation of their instructions as representatives to the Constitutional Convention, concocted. The Federalists represented commercial and business interests mostly, and creditors anxious to create a National Government that they could control, by spending precious time on it that people who had to get a living couldn't afford, the better to see to it their debts were repaid under the gun wielded by that same national government. The Antifederalists were determined to see Sovereignty remain with the People, and with their States.

The Antifederalists (in Jackson Turner Main's The Antifederalists, pp. 111, 120-128 passim) argued about taxes ("the impost") as a proxy for sovereignty, as the most obvious talisman of sovereign power. They wanted sovereignty and the tax power to remain with the People, hard-won in our War of Independence. They didn't want the grubby commercial classes and the well-to-do to lay hands on the same powers that had outraged people in the hands of the King's agents. Without the Bill of Rights, the Constitution bid fair to do so, through Congress's power to tax and the power of judicial review. The Antifederalists feared (prophetically) that the judiciary would always side with Congress on scoping questions, and would respect no area of State legislation. Likewise, they feared that Congress would simply preempt sources of revenue, and reduce the States to nothing. And so for the Antifederalists, the power to tax became a litmus of Sovereignty, and they debated it at length among themselves, in the ratification conventions, and with the Federalists.

The upshot was the preservation of the States' powers to tax, and the Tenth Amendment protection of States' rights.

I don't know how to tell you, in whatever dialect of Chinese you must speak, that they really meant it, that the federal government was not to become a colossus, and that the States must keep their Sovereignty and their rights. But then, your favorite President killed all the people he had to, to have things his way on that question, didn't he?

Winning a war still doesn't make you right on the issues. You can claim your filthy, bloodsoaked "win" if you wish -- here it is, I hold it out to you, stinking and smoking -- grasp it and take yourself to New York for your big New York payday. But don't pretend you are arguing a principle. I've explained how and how badly you are wrong, and how the People were within their rights to withdraw from a Union in which the moneyed classes professionally represented by Edwin Stanton and Abraham Lincoln, attorneys at law, proposed to welsh on the guarantees of rights and sovereignty represented by the Bill of Rights. I've explained my point of view, and you have not confuted me, but only recited your Unionist, triumphalist, Gilded-Age, vest-pocket catechism over and over. Well, call me when you think of something. I'm tired of listening to Lincoln's rationale for conquest.

893 posted on 06/04/2002 12:08:35 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
I have said that the constitution is the supreme law of the land. A synonym for "supreme" is "sovereign." Therefore the constitution is the sovereign law of the land.

Your word play is defective. There is no claim of Sovereignty in the Constitution. Quote it if you've got it. Article VI isn't it.

The founding fathers as a whole profoundly mistrusted a democracy.

You mean Hamilton and his merchant pals. Well, we've heard their maxim of government before, blurted out by a Philadelphia congressman on an FBI videotape: "Money talks, and bullshit walks!" What a proud motto for a political movement! Proud as Carthage, I'm sure.

As such power that would be vested in the people in a democracy is instead, vested in representatives of the people.

Oh, I see -- the representatives represent themselves, and tell us what to do afterwards. Gee, I wish I'd been born rich.

But even beyond that, no people have the right deny the delegated powers, since the constitution is the supreme law of the land.

You bet. So, chasing the pecking order upstream, we go from me, the lowly louse of a citizen, upstream to the powerful Congressmen and the magistrates, and further upstream to the people who give them money. I can't get further up the stream than them........nobody pays them or tells them what to do, rather the other way around.......so I conclude from your precis that we are a plutocratic oligarchy, and ought by right to be, just like Hamilton wanted.

Guess the Bill of Rights was kinda otiose after all, eh? The Antifederalists could have saved their breath, arguing with driven businessmen working on their bottom lines.

894 posted on 06/04/2002 12:25:03 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
So, your idea that the people are sovereign does not bear up under scrutiny since we are not a democracy.

Yes, it does. You just don't want to admit it -- you've got too much riding on the opposed proposition, that the nation's best interests are served by letting oligarchies milk the South and West to feed the Eastern cities. Sorry, you won't get me to buy that.


So are you saying that we are not a republic?

Concerning you conclusions of federalism vs anti-federalism:  The federalists did not want a codified bill of rights for fear that government would use that as an excuse for trying to take away any right not listed in the constitution.  After the abuses of the Adams presidency (and his disputes with the DuPonts), the practical problems inherent in a lack of bill of rights was observed.

Again states can't be sovereign, because sovereign means supreme.  And the states did not have supreme control over their people.  The constitution did.  Furthermore, the constitution delegated powers to the federal government which it prohibited from the states.

You can't be "supreme" or "sovereign" and have powers and rights denied to you at the same time.
895 posted on 06/04/2002 12:28:50 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Where did I say that people were property of the state?

It's implicit in your remarks. Either you work for the State and are its commandable resource, or it works for you, and it is your commandable resource.

So who is the master, you or the State? If it isn't you, it's the State.

Like they say, if you're sitting in a poker game and you can't tell by looking who the sucker is -- it's you.

896 posted on 06/04/2002 12:29:27 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
Your word play is defective. There is no claim of Sovereignty in the Constitution. Quote it if you've got it. Article VI isn't it.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Article VI clause 2 states ...Supreme law of the land.  In case you missed it, supreme and sovereign are synonyms.

Another way that this could be rendered is ...Sovereign law of the land.
897 posted on 06/04/2002 12:32:43 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: stainlessbanner
The South is winning as Mexico invades us right now!
898 posted on 06/04/2002 12:35:18 PM PDT by A CA Guy
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
"Furthermore, the very act of secession puts states laws above the constitution..."

No, it renders the state no longer subject to the Constitution.

899 posted on 06/04/2002 12:35:21 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
You can't be "supreme" or "sovereign" and have powers and rights denied to you at the same time.

Mutatis mutandis, the federal government cannot be "sovereign" or "supreme" in your usage, as long as there is a Bill of Rights.

Look, we are down to quibbling about the meanings of words here. What I mean by "Sovereign" is the standard poly-sci and historical meaning. Before we rebelled against Britain, George III was the Sovereign, notwithstanding that he shared power with Parliament and his ministers in Commons. In America after the Revolution, the former colonies become States -- their poleis, their populi, Peoples -- were the Sovereign in each place. Reading Main on that point is clear: the People were Sovereign, and the Antifederalists were concerned that a delegation of too much power to the federal government would make it a National Government, and the Sovereign. Hence the reservations of power -- showing where the power came from in the first place -- and the codification of the reservation in the Bill of Rights.

900 posted on 06/04/2002 12:45:35 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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