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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
True, except the supremacy clause does not stand alone in the U.S. Consititution. So your argument is not applicable here, as there are plenty of delegated rights and powers that it refers to.

But you've asserted that the supremacy clause is what prevents secession. Now you acknowledge that the supremacy clause grants nothing.

801 posted on 06/03/2002 6:56:07 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: lentulusgracchus
The question you will want to argue is, did the People of New York and Georgia give up their sovereignty, and cease to be a people -- cease to exist except as policy objects -- the minute they ratified the Constitution?

That's not the question I'm arguing.  To say that when the individual states gave up their sovereignty that they ceased to be a people is doing it too brown to put it mildly.

You will note that the constitution is mainly a check on the powers of the federal government.  The federal government is given certain limited powers, but these limited powers (as defined in the constitution) take precedence over any individual state's in the same area.  For example, no state has the power to conclude treaties, to declare war, or to set aside the federal form of government.  Yet this is precisely what the southern states did.

While the federal government can't tromp on state's rights, neither can states tromp of federal rights.

And then Abraham Lincoln conquered them, and made himself, as the First Magistrate of the United States Government, their master and Sovereign.

I suppose that one must have one's personal opinion on Mr. Lincoln, but calling him the "First Magistrate" is perhaps a wee bit too much, since he never took it upon himself to become the Chief Judge.  But, to be fair, if you want to hit on Lincoln, I suggest that you also slam Adams, Jackson and Buchanon, since they were at least as 'bad'.  In fact, Buchanon, in many ways, resembles a southern version of Lincoln.  From my readings, it appears that Lincoln was constantly restraining his allies from doing unconstitutional things.  If you don't believe this, then consider the horrors unleashed upon the south after the civil war.  It was far worse than the war itself in terms of liberties lost.  For all practical purposes, the south was enslaved for a good decade, because president Johnson was too weak politically (although he tried) to do anything about it.

No. The word "government" isn't in it. Secession is a people-to-people political act, modeled on the Roman model in which the plebs physically removed themselves from the Roman civitas and passed, as a body, out of the jurisdiction of Roman law. They did so because they had the right to do so, because they weren't bound to the land, to the City, or to service.

What I said was "in this case."  The actual definition is:

Secede \Se"cede"\ (?), v. i. [imp. & p. p. Seceded; p. pr. & vb. n. Seceding.] [L. secedere, secessum; pref se- aside + cedere to go, move. See Cede.]
To withdraw from fellowship, communion, or association; to separate one's self by a solemn act; to draw off; to retire; especially, to withdraw from a political or religious body.

secede v : withdraw from an organization or communion [syn: splinter, break away]

They seceded or "broke away" from the federal government.  This is what I'm talking of.  And no, they didn't have the sovereignty to do so.  I reiterate, that they gave up their powers to conclude treaties, declare war, and change the federal government when they joined the federal government.  By doing any one of the three, they were in violation of the Constitution.  However, they were guilty, at minimum of violating all three.
802 posted on 06/03/2002 7:01:31 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
True, except the supremacy clause does not stand alone in the U.S. Consititution. So your argument is not applicable here, as there are plenty of delegated rights and powers that it refers to.

But you've asserted that the supremacy clause is what prevents secession. Now you acknowledge that the supremacy clause grants nothing.

Say what???  Where did you get the fact that I so much as implied what you are saying?  I said that your argument was inapplicable as the supremacy clause does not stand alone.  The supremacy clause basically states that the constitution is the supreme law of the land (please don't pick nits about "laws in pursuance thereof" or treaties.  I'm just discussing the constitution itself right now).  If the constitution is the supreme law of the land, then all powers delegated to the federal government are part and parcel of this also.

Where does the constitution revoke the sovereignty of the federal government (the right to make war, treaties, etc.)?  Certainly not the 9th and 10th - which were codified to prevent against certain abuses that were prevelant under the Adam's administration.
803 posted on 06/03/2002 7:14:34 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
Is an "emanation" the moral equivalent of "interstices"? Or is it more an ex post facto "penumbra"?

LOL.  I've never been asked that before.  At the risk of having made a nasty "insterstice", I would choose "ex post facto penumbra."
804 posted on 06/03/2002 7:18:00 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
Good for you. Myself, I've always thought "living document" was just another anagram for "now we've got you!" and "screwed to the wall!"

Too true.  Actually, I wonder how long the so called "secessionists" would retain their views when (and if) the Aztlanders succeed is seceding...
805 posted on 06/03/2002 7:20:47 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
Not attacking up mile-long hills well-covered by batteries may also have had something to do with it....Lee might have learned from the six charges up Malvern Hill that failed in 1862, during the Chickahominy campaign, but then he did it again at Gettysburg. Ouch.

Yep. Lee was good as Civil war generals went, but was certainly not the genius as Southern Civil War mythology has painted him. He was uncommonly good at assessing the tactical situation, making good use of terrain, and then doing what the enemy least expected.

At Getteysburg he experienced a major lapse. Longstreet lobbyed hard against engaging the Union at Gettysburg, because he saw how much the ground favored the Union forces. But Lee's arrogance and disdain for his opponents, combined with the desire to bring the Union to the negotiating table got the better of his tactical sense (a good general doesn't waste his troops and listens to the council of proven subordinate commanders). The only thing that saved the Army of Northern Virginia from complete annhilation was the failure of union forces to pursue him in retreat. McClellan could well have ended the war then and there if he had.

After the war, Longstreet, who was arguably the better general, made the mistake of letting his opinion of Lee's actions at Gettysburg known publicly. The south turned on him rather than believe anything ill of Lee. Longstreet was shunned by his friends and died a broken man because of it.

Lee is the sacred cow of the south. Criticising him to a southerner is worse than blasphemy, and they will always point you to some book written to support the myth rather than the facts. They also forget that his many early victories were won in battles against very incompetent Union commanders leading green troops that could barely handle a musket - while most southern soldiers came to the Army of Northern Virginia with exstensive experience handling firearms and time in the saddle.

806 posted on 06/03/2002 9:26:00 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: lentulusgracchus
Point is, the decision was handed down in 1869, Helloooo.

And when would you have liked the decision handed down? Before it happened? The Supreme Court rules on cases as they come before them regardless of how long it takes. The ruling in Scott v. Sanford, the Dred Scott decision, was issued in 1857, ruling on something that had happened 11 years before. That's the way it works. The court can't issue a decision on something unless it is brought to them.

807 posted on 06/03/2002 10:45:41 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: PsyOp
True there were better southern generals than Lee, but you have to admit that nobody better represented the true gentleman than did Lee at that time.
808 posted on 06/03/2002 11:05:00 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
nobody better represented the true gentleman than did Lee at that time.

True. One of the reasons for his enduring fame and good press. He was forgiven much for reasons of character.

809 posted on 06/03/2002 11:41:54 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The supremacy clause basically states that the constitution is the supreme law of the land (please don't pick nits about "laws in pursuance thereof" or treaties.

I simply asked you what powers the Supremacy clause contained if it were the only clause. Even more so because you base your argument on it. I acknowledge that the Constitution (and laws made pursuant to it) are above state constitutions and laws - WHERE the federal government has been delegated authority.

If the constitution is the supreme law of the land, then all powers delegated to the federal government are part and parcel of this also.

Excellent, you do understand the 10th. Where has the Constitution been delegated the power to prohibit secession? Where is it written that the contract is permanent and unbreakable? Why did the founders NOT include the word "perpetual" (which they used 5 times in the Articles), "permanent", "unbreakable" or any other synonym? In what clause or section if the Constitution is this elusive delegation of powers to be discovered?

810 posted on 06/03/2002 12:03:48 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Excellent, you do understand the 10th. Where has the Constitution been delegated the power to prohibit secession? Where is it written that the contract is permanent and unbreakable? Why did the founders NOT include the word "perpetual" (which they used 5 times in the Articles), "permanent", "unbreakable" or any other synonym? In what clause or section if the Constitution is this elusive delegation of powers to be discovered?

I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again.  Only the federal government has the power to make treaties, regulate interstate commerce and, for that matter, make laws pursuant to the constitution.  All powers delegated to the federal government are enumerated in said constitution.  If said constitution is the supreme law of the land, no state can make treaties, set aside the federal government, or make any law which trumps the constitution.  Every seceding state made laws which elevated state laws above the constitution.  Every CSA state except Tennessee set aside the constitutional form of government that had been set up at founding.  Every state that joined the CSA rejected the U.S. constitution (although the CSA constitution was similar) and thus rejected the validity of the supremacy clause.  The federal government is the only U.S. government authorized under the constitution to treat with foreign powers.  Every state in the CSA did so (by leaving the Union, they were asserting their supremacy over the constitution.  By joining the CSA, they were exercising treaty power).

Article I, Section 10 says:
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

We see from this that the CSA broke the constitution by keeping troops, attempting to exercise treaty power and declaring war on the Union.

Furthermore, Article I, section 8, says that congress has (amongst other things) the power:

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

Since the CSA set aside the constitution, they were an insurrection, therefore the Union was only exercising the power inherent in the constitution.  By denying that the constitution had any power over them (every CSA state did this), they were in open rebellion.

The only way that the CSA could give the least vestige of legality to their proceedings was to keep the U.S. Constitution as it stood after their secession.  Of course there would then be some awkwardness attached to their position of adhering to something that they fled from...

While the word "secession" is not in the constitution, the organization of said constitution makes it illegal to secede - because the federal powers are defined and the supremacy clause makes the constitution supreme to state laws.  Not even the vaunted 9th and 10th amendments deny this.  In fact, the 10th reinforces the notion that enumerated federal powers trump state powers and rights.

Pray tell, how can a state exercise powers that it is specifically prohibited from exercising?  IOW, how could the CSA declare war when the constitution forbade them?  How could the individual states elevate their laws above the constitution (everyone did so)?
811 posted on 06/03/2002 12:55:09 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Everything you cite refers to states within the union - not states that are out of the union. The issue that must be resolved first is the legality of secession. The US government had no control over Rhode Island and Providence Plantations until she ratified (on her 13th attempt). She and two others expressly reserved the right to resume the powers of self-government.

If said constitution is the supreme law of the land, no state can make treaties, set aside the federal government, or make any law which trumps the constitution.

And what I'm trying to get you to explain, is where is any prohibition against secession. I agree about the treaties, and about laws, but where is something to prevent the states from setting "aside the federal government"?

812 posted on 06/03/2002 2:58:30 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Where has the Constitution been delegated the power to prohibit secession?

Jefferson Davis said it resided in the Congress' power to provide for the common defense.

Walt

813 posted on 06/03/2002 3:45:00 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Since the CSA set aside the constitution, they were an insurrection, therefore the Union was only exercising the power inherent in the constitution. By denying that the constitution had any power over them (every CSA state did this), they were in open rebellion.

The US Supreme Court ruled in 1862 that the "so-called confederate states" (their phrase) were in rebellion and that under acts passed on 1795 and 1807 (passed in pursuance of the Constitution don't you know) the government was empowered to put down that rebellion.

The neo-rebs are not like Monty's Python's Black Knight. They are not like the Emperor with no clothes. They are like the Black Knight with no clothes.

Walt

814 posted on 06/03/2002 3:49:52 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Aurelius
"One aspect of the neo-reb rant is its unreasonable nature."

"Ureasonable" is a subjective judgement; what appears unreasonable to you may appear perfectly reasonable to someone else.

Over a million Union soldiers saw it the same that Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Jay, Wilson, Story, Marshall, Jackson, Houston -- and Lincoln saw it.

Walt

815 posted on 06/03/2002 3:52:14 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: stainlessbanner
The South shot themselves in the foot. That is, they shot and killed their own Stonewall Jackson. If Jackson had lived, the South would have own.

IMHO

816 posted on 06/03/2002 4:05:57 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Article I, Section 10 pertains to states within the Union. Let it not be forgotten the Southron states seceded as independent republics or states first, and then aligned with the Confederate States of America.

The CSA was not even created before the states seceded. Consider the order of secession:

South Carolina, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 20 Dec 1860

Mississippi, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 9 Jan 1861

Florida, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 10 Jan 1861

Alabama, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 11 Jan 1861

Georgia, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 19 Jan 1861

Louisiana, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 26 Jan 1861

Texas, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 1 Feb 1861 (admitted to CSA 23 Feb)

Constitution of the Confederate States of America signed 11 March 1861

Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Missouri, and Kentucky were admitted between 4 April - 10 December 1861 (after Lincoln's call for troops).

***********************

Pray tell, how can a state exercise powers that it is specifically prohibited from exercising?

The real question we should be asking is how can the federal government assume rights not specifically delegated to it?


817 posted on 06/03/2002 10:36:45 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Jeff Gordon
Jackson's death was tragic. Because of his fearless drive and bravery, he was in front of his troops, leading them. It is so unfortunate we lost our beloved Stonewall. Perhaps you are right, had Jackson lived, the South would have won. For sure, Lee missed him desperately and oft saw Gen. Jackson in visions.
818 posted on 06/03/2002 10:41:10 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Where has the Constitution been delegated the power to prohibit secession? Where is it written that the contract is permanent and unbreakable?

Just like the US Consitution, the Constitution of the CSA does not specifically call out secession (see Article VI, 6) - one of the most sacred rights among the Confederate states. Perhaps they understood what delegating and retaining rights means.

819 posted on 06/03/2002 10:57:59 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Non-Sequitur
The court can't issue a decision on something unless it is brought to them.

My point, which you must concede in fairness, is that you cannot bind people to rulings made after the fact. That's judging people a posteriori, applying the standards of one time to another. And the Court's ruling was teleological, in that, in 1869, they could only rule one way anyway, politically, because Lincoln had changed the Constitution with two million bayonets and revolutionized the basis of the Union by winning his political war against the South.

And it would have upset too many applecarts for them to have ruled correctly, to-wit, that the Southern States were within their rights, sitting in convention as The People, to have seceded from the Union.

You might say that the Supreme Court's decision was a necessary one, to perfume spoils of conquest reeking of the stink of blood. And its timing falls squarely in the middle of the period when the South in no way was a participant in the Union, but a conquest under it.

820 posted on 06/04/2002 12:58:44 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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