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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Excellent, you do understand the 10th. Where has the Constitution been delegated the power to prohibit secession? Where is it written that the contract is permanent and unbreakable? Why did the founders NOT include the word "perpetual" (which they used 5 times in the Articles), "permanent", "unbreakable" or any other synonym? In what clause or section if the Constitution is this elusive delegation of powers to be discovered?

I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again.  Only the federal government has the power to make treaties, regulate interstate commerce and, for that matter, make laws pursuant to the constitution.  All powers delegated to the federal government are enumerated in said constitution.  If said constitution is the supreme law of the land, no state can make treaties, set aside the federal government, or make any law which trumps the constitution.  Every seceding state made laws which elevated state laws above the constitution.  Every CSA state except Tennessee set aside the constitutional form of government that had been set up at founding.  Every state that joined the CSA rejected the U.S. constitution (although the CSA constitution was similar) and thus rejected the validity of the supremacy clause.  The federal government is the only U.S. government authorized under the constitution to treat with foreign powers.  Every state in the CSA did so (by leaving the Union, they were asserting their supremacy over the constitution.  By joining the CSA, they were exercising treaty power).

Article I, Section 10 says:
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

We see from this that the CSA broke the constitution by keeping troops, attempting to exercise treaty power and declaring war on the Union.

Furthermore, Article I, section 8, says that congress has (amongst other things) the power:

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

Since the CSA set aside the constitution, they were an insurrection, therefore the Union was only exercising the power inherent in the constitution.  By denying that the constitution had any power over them (every CSA state did this), they were in open rebellion.

The only way that the CSA could give the least vestige of legality to their proceedings was to keep the U.S. Constitution as it stood after their secession.  Of course there would then be some awkwardness attached to their position of adhering to something that they fled from...

While the word "secession" is not in the constitution, the organization of said constitution makes it illegal to secede - because the federal powers are defined and the supremacy clause makes the constitution supreme to state laws.  Not even the vaunted 9th and 10th amendments deny this.  In fact, the 10th reinforces the notion that enumerated federal powers trump state powers and rights.

Pray tell, how can a state exercise powers that it is specifically prohibited from exercising?  IOW, how could the CSA declare war when the constitution forbade them?  How could the individual states elevate their laws above the constitution (everyone did so)?
811 posted on 06/03/2002 12:55:09 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Everything you cite refers to states within the union - not states that are out of the union. The issue that must be resolved first is the legality of secession. The US government had no control over Rhode Island and Providence Plantations until she ratified (on her 13th attempt). She and two others expressly reserved the right to resume the powers of self-government.

If said constitution is the supreme law of the land, no state can make treaties, set aside the federal government, or make any law which trumps the constitution.

And what I'm trying to get you to explain, is where is any prohibition against secession. I agree about the treaties, and about laws, but where is something to prevent the states from setting "aside the federal government"?

812 posted on 06/03/2002 2:58:30 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Since the CSA set aside the constitution, they were an insurrection, therefore the Union was only exercising the power inherent in the constitution. By denying that the constitution had any power over them (every CSA state did this), they were in open rebellion.

The US Supreme Court ruled in 1862 that the "so-called confederate states" (their phrase) were in rebellion and that under acts passed on 1795 and 1807 (passed in pursuance of the Constitution don't you know) the government was empowered to put down that rebellion.

The neo-rebs are not like Monty's Python's Black Knight. They are not like the Emperor with no clothes. They are like the Black Knight with no clothes.

Walt

814 posted on 06/03/2002 3:49:52 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Article I, Section 10 pertains to states within the Union. Let it not be forgotten the Southron states seceded as independent republics or states first, and then aligned with the Confederate States of America.

The CSA was not even created before the states seceded. Consider the order of secession:

South Carolina, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 20 Dec 1860

Mississippi, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 9 Jan 1861

Florida, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 10 Jan 1861

Alabama, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 11 Jan 1861

Georgia, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 19 Jan 1861

Louisiana, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 26 Jan 1861

Texas, Convention passed Ordinance of Secession, 1 Feb 1861 (admitted to CSA 23 Feb)

Constitution of the Confederate States of America signed 11 March 1861

Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Missouri, and Kentucky were admitted between 4 April - 10 December 1861 (after Lincoln's call for troops).

***********************

Pray tell, how can a state exercise powers that it is specifically prohibited from exercising?

The real question we should be asking is how can the federal government assume rights not specifically delegated to it?


817 posted on 06/03/2002 10:36:45 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again

If my friend 4CJ will permit me, that is entirely the point. You keep saying it, but the Constitution does not.

At the end of the day, the only thing that ratifies your opinion over 4CJ's and mine is the gun you keep offering to blow our heads off with. Tacitly and politely, of course. It is armed violence which is now the basis of the Union, not the consent of the governed. Oh, we get to vote.....but everyone knows it doesn't really count any more.

821 posted on 06/04/2002 1:08:12 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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