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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: PsyOp
I'm just an ignorant yank that couldn't possibly understand the beauty of the antebellum southern way of life that was threatened by scurilous yankee insistance on following the legislative proceedures of the same Constituion those Rebel states ratified in the first place and later found to be too onerous.

Ignorant maybe, but not stupid if you can see through Demoncrat propaganda and understand that the good old boy Southern Demoncrats kept Martin Luther King so far back in jail they had to shoot peas to him through a peashooter to feed him. I lived through that time in the Deep South and was subtly threatened with murder once by a scary country hick for saying that blacks should have the same rights as whites.

There are a lot of people in FR who are very familiar with the Constitution and its history. I've learned a lot by reading their posts.

From what I can see, the South had a legitimate Constitutional argument for secession. The North and the South had compromised to agree on a Constitution. Slavery was recognized as legal, and the North agreed to return escaped slaves. The North reneged on its Constitutional duty to return the slaves. Perhaps they found it too onerous. Would the South had signed the Constitution if the North hadn't agreed to return their slaves? I don't know. Maybe some of the FR Constitutional people know (they probably won't agree with each other, however). Why should the South stay if the North was breaking a critical part (to them) of the Constitution?

Don't get me wrong. Slavery was morally wrong, but it was legal at the time. If that were so, why shouldn't a Southern slave owner have the right to move his legal property (i.e., his slaves) into newly acquired land opening up in the West. Could the Federal goverment or those Western states outlaw something that was accepted in the Constitution. (This may get into the Dred Scott decision which makes some awful arguments but perhaps has some good arguments too.)

I've always felt the South had the right to secede under the 10th Amendment. Others have cited the 9th. You might be interested in the opinion of President Hayes, a former Union brevet general. He said in his diary:

May 2 [1891]. Saturday.-At the G. A. R. [State Encampment] there was a little demagoguery in the way of keeping alive the bitterness of the war. A motion was made and carried against the purchase of Chickamauga battlefield, against Rebel monuments, etc., etc. The truth is, the men of the South believed in their theory of the Constitution. There was plausibility, perhaps more than plausibility, in the States' rights doctrine under the terms and in the history of the Constitution. Lee and Jackson are not in the moral character of their deeds to be classed with Benedict Arnold. They fought for their convictions, for their country as they had been educated to regard it. Let them be mistaken, and treated accordingly. Their military genius and heroism make the glory of the Union triumph.

I think there was a Harvard law professor after the war who argued that the South was correct constitutionally.

741 posted on 05/30/2002 9:42:38 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: PsyOp
this blind devotion to the "rightness" of the Confederate cause and near religous adoration of Leaders like Lee, Davis and others is beyond me.

Of course it's "beyond" you. Don't feel bad. It's a Southern thing and some people just don't understand.

You really need to study both sides of the issue and maybe talk to some folks with other viewpoints. Gain some perspective. I do have books I can recommend if you're interested -- which I sincerely doubt.

You also might try galvanizing for a change while you're studing "tactical strategy."

742 posted on 05/30/2002 10:01:25 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Yankees are just torqued because they couldn't whip a bunch of farmers in a fair fight, and had to resort to targeting civilians to finally win.

You do have a way with words, 4CJ! I appreciate your gallantry.

743 posted on 05/30/2002 10:03:43 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
You really need to study both sides of the issue...

Why is it when someone disagrees with a southerner on the Civil War it is automatically assumed by them (the least objective of the two parties), that their critic is un-informed, uneducated, or simply hasn't read the "right" books? I was unaware until now that arrogance and condescencion were "a southern thing."

Tell me, how does it feel to be a fellow traveller of the likes of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the Reverend Fahrakhan? They glom on to the silly arguments of Confederate apologists to support their silly arguments in favor of reparations, continued support of quotas, expandding the federal government, and every other silly welfare program they can think of. That in itself should tell you something.

P.S. should you respond to this, try to actually answer one or more of the points I've made instead of trying side-step them with cute phrases and tired witicisms. Oh, and the next time you hear some muslim making excuses for the misguided policies of Islam, remember this: you sound just the same when you try to defend the policies of the south that led to the Civil War. Not even your beloved Lee believed in the cause.

"God alone can save us from our folly, selfishness and shortsightedness.... I see only that a fearful calamity is upon us...." - Robert E. Lee, letter to Martha Custis Williams, January 22, 1861.

"I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution." - Robert E. Lee, letter to his son, January 23, 1861.

744 posted on 05/30/2002 11:30:55 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
I was unaware until now that arrogance and condescencion were "a southern thing."

Name calling is such a petty response, I don't believe I'll respond further to your diatribes. Have a nice weekend.

745 posted on 05/30/2002 11:57:23 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
Name calling is such a petty response, I don't believe I'll respond further to your diatribes. Have a nice weekend.

I called you no names! I properly characterized your response to me as arrogant and asked a pointed question that must have hit too close to home. I'm not surprised you choose to characterize facts and reason as a "diatribe." What else could you do? What follows is a little excerpt of the Confederate Constitution I thought you might find interesting:

ARTICLE I.
Section IX. (Section IX is what passes for a “Bill of Rights” in the Confederate Constitution. Here you will find The first 10 amendments of the U.S. Bill of Rights repeated: Paragrahs 12 thru 20. But take note of the Those “rights” which they felt were most important by their placement ahead of rights like free speech, excercise of religion, bearing arms, etc.)
1.The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.
2.Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
4.No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Section X. (And here is where the Confederates deny their own states the right they claimed for themselves when they left the Union - is hypocrisy a “southern thing” too?)
1.No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation;
3.No State shall, without the consent of Congress shall.... enter into any agreement or compact with another State....

ARTICLE IV.
1. The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.
3. No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs; or to whom such service or labor may be due.

Section III.
3.The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

There was only one "right" for which the leadership of the Confederacy fought, in spite of the disingenuous rhetoric they used to drag their states in secession. Many good men and women died on both sides fighting a war on behalf of men whom Andrew Johnson rightly characterized as "these traitorous aristocrats."

As it was then, the Democrat party is now, still being run by "traitorous aristocrats" who care nothing for the constitution. Extolling the virtues of Confederate soldiers and generals who were duped by their politcos into thinking their cause was noble and who fought gallantly is fine; extolling the cause itself, which was clearly not noble, or those who crafted it, is foolishness.

746 posted on 05/31/2002 12:47:37 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: rustbucket
Could the Federal goverment or those Western states outlaw something that was accepted in the Constitution.

Yes, why not? Given that the concept of states rights was paid at least lip service by Jefferson Davis then why shouldn't the local states have the right to limit slavery if they chose to do so? The Constitution did not expressly protect slavery so there is no reason why it could not be limited by local governments.

I think there was a Harvard law professor after the war who argued that the South was correct constitutionally.

There have been professors before, during, and after the war that have argued the southern actions were legal. There have been others that have argued the southern actions were not. The only time it came before the Supreme Court secession was ruled illegal. But the debate goes on.

747 posted on 05/31/2002 3:40:14 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: PsyOp
Definition: DIATRIBE
Pronunciation: 'dI-&-"trIb
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin diatriba, from Greek diatribE pastime, discourse, from diatribein to spend (time), wear away, from dia- + tribein to rub -- more at THROW
Date: 1581
1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
2 : a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3 : ironical or satirical criticism
4 : the act of politely explaining in detail why a sothron supporter is incorrect
748 posted on 05/31/2002 3:43:40 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: PsyOp
Lee was pro-Union, freed his slaves, and took the Confederate defeat on his shoulders. What's the point?
749 posted on 05/31/2002 5:47:50 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: ned
Who are you supposed to be this time, Sybill?
750 posted on 05/31/2002 7:01:53 AM PDT by Twodees
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Note that the constitution takes precedence over any laws instituted by state governments

Only those made "pursuant" (as in "conforming to") to the Constitution.


So are you saying that the constitution is not made in pursuant to the constitution?

By your continued unqualified definition no federal law could ever be unconstitutional. Article IV, Section 1 requires that the acts of the states be recognized by all parties to the Constitution: Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.

Uh huh.  What has that got to say to anything?  The very same section also says that congress may make general laws by which such acts shall be proved, and the effect of such acts.  It's a stretch to use this clause to bolster your point, because it has to do more with the format of the the proceedings of each state - which congress can regulate.

Yes, and I have used, on occasion (and rather carelessly) unqualified definitions.  But this is not what I meant.  And from the context and from the fact that I have qualified the powers also, I thought it should have been clear what I meant.  If there is some confusion about this, I apologize, for I definately mean "in pursance thereof" when I talk about laws and the constitution.

However, I have never (in this thread) discussed any federal laws (made in pursance thereof or otherwise) concerning the constitution.  Concerning the legality of secession, I have used mainly the Constitution itself (Article VI, section 2; 9th amendment; 10th amendment) with some help from the constitutional convention of 1787 and secession documents of the southern states.

If you'll note, the sentence that you quote from me as being to unfettered federal laws is, in fact, quite different.  I'm referencing the constitution itself.

The Declarations of Secession by the states were constitutional - unless you can cite something within the Constitution that prohibits secession. Which, according to Amendment X, means a posititve enumeration of a power specifically delegating the federal government the ability to prohibit secession, or or a clause that prohibits the states from seceding. Neither exist.

Now if I understand this aright, the supremacy clause basically states that the constitution (and laws made in pursuance thereof and treaties) stands as the supreme law of the land - even overriding any laws made by individual states.  Nothing in any subsequent amendments take away this power.  Secession, in this case, can be defined as breaking away from the federal government.

So here's your catch-22.  The constitution gives us our form of government, the supremacy clause says that this form of government is supreme and secession says that it is not supreme.

Every state which seceeded (except Tennessee) asserted that state laws trumped federal laws.  In fact, many of these states indicated that anything in the U.S. Constitution which didn't go contrary to state laws was okay - definitely backwards from the way the constitution was set up.

So what the Union was dealing with here was not a legal separation, but a bonafide rebellion instead.
751 posted on 05/31/2002 7:25:25 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Twodees
I may be crazy, but I don't go around trying to prove that the south had the right to secede then trying to prove that states don't have rights...
752 posted on 05/31/2002 7:27:35 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
...Which, according to Amendment X, means a posititve enumeration of a power specifically delegating the federal government...

Be careful with this.  TwoDees believes that the 10th doesn't mean anything about federally enumerated powers.  He has blasted me royally on this one.  Take care. :)
753 posted on 05/31/2002 7:32:21 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
...Which, according to Amendment X, means a posititve enumeration of a power specifically delegating the federal government...

Be careful with this.  TwoDees believes that the 10th doesn't mean anything about federally enumerated powers.  He has blasted me royally on this one.  Take care. :)
754 posted on 05/31/2002 7:35:37 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Non-Sequitur
Given that the concept of states rights was paid at least lip service by Jefferson Davis then why shouldn't the local states have the right to limit slavery if they chose to do so?

Yes, I realized some might argue this. Does the concept of states rights apply only to the North?

If slavery is recognized in the Constitution, how could the 10th Amendment be used to say that some states can prohibit slavery?

755 posted on 05/31/2002 7:46:12 AM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Twodees
Naw, boy. I'm talking about that jug-eared little daddy's boy y'all worship. The one who's an 'all hat and no cattle' Connecticut yankee posing as a Texan. I think y'all call him "W". I call him Geedub Boosh, Vincente Fox's prom date.

So who's your boy? The big mouthed kid who grew up in wealthy DC neighborhood, son of a high-paid bureaucrat who went to private schools and has pretended all his life that he was from a blue collar Irish family.

I'm from a blue collar Irish family, and Pat is nothing but a loud mouth punk who wouldn’t have lasted a week in my old neighborhood.

756 posted on 05/31/2002 7:53:35 AM PDT by Ditto
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The southern acts of secession were not constitutional just because my good and learned friend, 4ConservativeJustices, says they are. The southern acts of secession are not unconstitutional just because I, in my modest fashion, say that they are. The southern acts of secession were unconstitutional because the Supreme Court of the United States, in their wisom and by a 5 to 3 margin in an 1869 decision, says that they are. And until the Constitution is amended or a future Supreme Court modifies or overrules the decision in Texas v. White then the will remain unconstitutional.
757 posted on 05/31/2002 7:53:58 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
"Had Washington been alive in 1861 he would have been first in line to offer his services to Abraham Lincoln."

No one is perfect.

758 posted on 05/31/2002 7:54:28 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: rustbucket
Ah but you see slavery was never specifically recognized by the Constitution. The words 'slave' or 'slavery' appear nowhere in it. Nowhere are there any expressed or implied permissions or restrictions on it so the powers to enact legislation affecting slavery were not powers reserved to the United States. The states could legislate against it or for it as they wished.
759 posted on 05/31/2002 8:03:56 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
The southern acts of secession were not constitutional just because my good and learned friend, 4ConservativeJustices, says they are. The southern acts of secession are not unconstitutional just because I, in my modest fashion, say that they are. The southern acts of secession were unconstitutional because the Supreme Court of the United States, in their wisom and by a 5 to 3 margin in an 1869 decision, says that they are. And until the Constitution is amended or a future Supreme Court modifies or overrules the decision in Texas v. White then the will remain unconstitutional.

The Supremes have made some decisions wherein they tortured or added language (penumbras and emanations on Roe vs Wade for example) that makes referring to them iffy at best.  Although their track record has been okay, it hasn't been perfect by any means.

But going back to the original founding documents, the case becomes very clear.  Even Madison himself rebuked Calhoun for misinterpreting his words on nullification and secession.

However, it is because of some strange Supreme Court rulings in the past (though mercifully they've been few) that many people (myself included) are uncomfortable with accepting any rulings from the court without first looking at the rulings and reasoning behind them.

But then, I've never been a believer of the "living document" theory...
760 posted on 05/31/2002 8:16:42 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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