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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: varina davis
As one Virginian expressed it: They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence. Succinct.

Succinct, but not true. Gettysburg is a prime example. In each and every battle, victory on either side was determined by the better general combined with the state of his troops moral and confidence. Early in the war this fell mostly to the Confederates. Later, as the Union fielded better Generals and the troops gained confidence in them the tide swung.

721 posted on 05/30/2002 1:57:04 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Twodees
No, neither amendment contains any reference to the "rights" of the federal government. Rights are only mentioned as belonging to the people. Powers are delegated to the federal government by the people through their states via the specification of those powers in the Constitution. Rights are the sole province of the people. What you're doing here is like a four year-old pointing out what she sees in a cloud and insisting that everyone else must see it as well. The plain language you posted refutes your claim. There is simply no way to read: "The powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people" and then to claim that for a state power to be valid, it must be enumerated as you are doing in reference to secession.

I see where you are coming from.  You are picking nits when I am using rights vice powers.  And literally you are correct (although a case could easily be made that with certain powers come certain rights).

The 10th amendment makes reference to federal enumerated powers when it says that all powers not delegated to the U.S. by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states...

Now to pick nits with you, show me where in the constitution that said powers are delegated to the federal government via state governments and the people.

While the 10th amendment does not list enumerated federal powers, they surely make reference to them.

So, according to Article VI, clause 2 and the 10th amendment of the Constitution, any powers reserved to the federal government trumps any laws made by the states.  Period.

This is really bizarre the way you have actually posted the text of Article VI and of the 9th and 10th amendments and are now pointing proudly at them and assuring me that their plainly worded language says something else entirely from what my eyes can see. I'm to trust you instead of my lying eyes, huh? I urge you to seek professional help before you snap and kill us all.

Can I help it if you can't read plain english?  Take a deep breath, and try to read article VI, clause 2 and the 10th amendment again.  If you can't read, get someone else to do it for you.  Read very carefully, note the word "delegated" and "prohibited" in the 10th.  Note that the constitution takes precedence over any laws instituted by state governments.
722 posted on 05/30/2002 2:00:07 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
Once they ratified the constitution, however, everything in the constitution applied - including the supremacy clause.

I know of no instance where a legislature didn't accept the entire constitutional package (Texas tried, but failed).
723 posted on 05/30/2002 2:02:22 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
The clauses of the Constitution didn't apply to States that hadn't yet ratified, in 1787, and they don't apply to States that, sitting in convention as the People, exercise their Sovereignty which is certainly reserved under the 9th and 10th Amendments (but need not be explicitly reserved, because Sovereignty trumps all agreements) by taking counsel among themselves and seceding from the Union.

Sovereignty is only reserved under the 9th and 10th if you can ignore that pesky supremacy clause (since the constitution basically reserves sovereignty to itself - with the federal government as the enforcing agent).  So I guess that if you are willing to pick and choose which parts of the constitution to adhere too, that you would be correct.
724 posted on 05/30/2002 2:10:07 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: stainlessbanner
We did. Just look at the filthy, squalid, degenerate urban shitholes the "winners" hail from. Now they are pouring down South to make our beautiful homeland a mirror image of their stinking, crime ridden sewer.
725 posted on 05/30/2002 2:15:49 PM PDT by rebelsoldier
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Comment #726 Removed by Moderator

To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Note that the constitution takes precedence over any laws instituted by state governments

Only those made "pursuant" (as in "conforming to") to the Constitution. By your continued unqualified definition no federal law could ever be unconstitutional. Article IV, Section 1 requires that the acts of the states be recognized by all parties to the Constitution:

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.
The Declarations of Secession by the states were constitutional - unless you can cite something within the Constitution that prohibits secession. Which, according to Amendment X, means a posititve enumeration of a power specifically delegating the federal government the ability to prohibit secession, or or a clause that prohibits the states from seceding. Neither exist.
727 posted on 05/30/2002 2:38:16 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Non-Sequitur
They are all such a humorless lot.

Not all of us. From The Daily Picayune newspaper of Feb 27, 1864:

Omnibusters - The editor of the Richmond Examiner proposed that, since the repeal of the substitute law has forced into the army both fat and lean, the very heavy men, whose size incapacitates them for the infantry and artillery exercises, and whose weight would prove fatal to their horses should they join the cavalry, should raise a company of men weighing 250 pounds and over, to take the field in iron-clad omnibuses, and to be called Omnibusters. He argues that the size alone would have a very demoralizing effect on the enemy...

And part of another piece, in the vernacular (March 27, 1864):

At this juncture, in cums Mrs. Snittle, who kin lift 600 with old Podhammer on the top uv it, and it wuz no time afore she diskivered wat hiz bizniz waz. She turned read in the face. She said:

"Yoor goin to taik my furnytoor?"

"Certingly."

"And we air yoor slaivs?"

"Uv coarse."

"And you ken sell my children?"

"Natterally."

"And you kin maik me yoor conkebine?"

"If you wish."

"You old beast," shreckt the infooriated feemaile chattel, forgetin her normal condichun, "yu sell my babys, yu taik my furytoor; drat yu, I'll give yu sum uv it now." whereupon she hurled a chare, which laid him prostrait on the floor, when she pickt him up and slung him out the dore."


728 posted on 05/30/2002 3:19:03 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
Hmmm...I guess you just had to be there.
729 posted on 05/30/2002 3:45:43 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
;-/
730 posted on 05/30/2002 4:05:51 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Ditto
Naw, boy. I'm talking about that jug-eared little daddy's boy y'all worship. The one who's an 'all hat and no cattle' Connecticut yankee posing as a Texan. I think y'all call him "W". I call him Geedub Boosh, Vincente Fox's prom date.
731 posted on 05/30/2002 4:10:03 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
I regret having wasted my time on someone as obviously afflicted as you are. It's pointless for me to tell you that I am reading the plain English while you're busy huffing glue and talking about the groovy,far out emanations from penumbras.

This is a little over my daily limit of jabberwocky, son. I guess I'll have to shun you after all.

732 posted on 05/30/2002 4:16:32 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
Have you been taking care of that old dog of yours, Twodees?
733 posted on 05/30/2002 4:17:54 PM PDT by ned
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To: PsyOp
Virginian expressed it: They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence. Succinct. Succinct, but not true.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion -- though it is incorrect. There were never better generals than Southern generals in the WFSI.

734 posted on 05/30/2002 4:40:16 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
There were never better generals than Southern generals in the WFSI.

Really? Then why didn't Lee win at Gettysburg? If he had listened to Longstreet, clearly a better general than Lee, whose tactical genius was exceededonly by his strategic stupidity, he would not have fought there. Numbers didn't decide the battle. Lee blew it. He committed bonehead errors born of arrogance and over-confidence - errors that were amplified by several of his "superior" subordinate generals he also believed their own press.

" I have carefully searched the military records of both ancient and modern history, and never found [ Ulysses S.] Grant's superior as a general." - Robert E. Lee.

I know Civil War Mythology is important to many Southerners, but are you going to contradict your greatest hero? I would suggest you read Nolan's Lee Considered. A work that is recommended by the War College.

735 posted on 05/30/2002 5:32:48 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
" I have carefully searched the military records of both ancient and modern history, and never found [ Ulysses S.] Grant's superior as a general." - Robert E. Lee.

Only a person of Lee's moral caliber and sense of humility and graciousness would make such a statement. A true hero and a true gentleman, of whom we may never see the likes of again.

736 posted on 05/30/2002 5:39:34 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
Only a person of Lee's moral caliber and sense of humility and graciousness would make such a statement.

So... he was just being polite? A gracious liar? Even I have more regard for the mans honor and integrity than that. Read Nolans book and any other's recommended by the war college. You see... the U.S. Military cannot afford to have officers who believe in fantasy, which is why, when they they do tactical studies, they must rely on fact and not mythology. They do not reccomend that their officers read mythology, becasue that gets people killed.

I have engaged in several military "tactical analysis'" of Civil War battles, Gettysburg being only one. Lee was near to a genius when it came ot on the ground tactics, but his strategic planning and foresight left much to be desired. Not only were Grant and Sherman up to his level tactically (I'll give the edge here to Lee), both were superior to him in terms of strategic thinking. Strategy, not tactics on any particular battlefield, is what won the war for the North. Longstreet knew this too, but was pilloried in the South after the war when he made the mistake of making his criticisms of Lee public (Pickett, who lost his division on Day three refused to blame Lee and turned instead on Longstreet). After the war the South needed its heroes, exalting Lee far beyond his due, and stiffling and destroying his critics that had done near as much. A practice that continues today.

737 posted on 05/30/2002 6:06:34 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
You are no doubt knowledgeable in tactical strategy, but fail to recognize strategies of the heart and of principle. It is a given that the South lost battles during the war. And part of that failed strategy is because the South was in a defensive mode from day one with never any plans to TAKE OVER anything! And everyone knows what constitutes the best defense.

As President Jefferson Davis so plaintively said: "All we want is to be left alone."

738 posted on 05/30/2002 7:18:45 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
but fail to recognize strategies of the heart and of principle.

I get it now. I'm just an ignorant yank that couldn't possibly understand the beauty of the antebellum southern way of life that was threatened by scurilous yankee insistance on following the legislative proceedures of the same Constituion those Rebel states ratified in the first place and later found to be too onerous. States rights over the democratic process and all that. Please.... the only Principle that mattered, the only right at stake, in spite of all the political rhetoric and attempts to obfuscate the issue (on both sides) was slavery. Pure and simple.

It amazes me when southerners who can see right through, and perfectly dissect, political spin when its on TV in the year 2002, become dumbstruck by the spin of their own Civil War (and long dead) politicians. I find it even more amazing when it comes from southern conservatives (I'm making an assumption about your political leanings here, so forgive me if they are incorrect), who don't seem to understand that they are parroting the same rhetoric of southern democrats who brought us the welfare state and near universal socialism.

While I will never deny any southerner the right to be proud of his state or the accomplishments of its soldiers and generals in the war, this blind devotion to the "rightness" of the Confederate cause and near religous adoration of Leaders like Lee, Davis and others is beyond me.

I have always stated that the Democratic Party was and still is a slave party (and the historical record on that is indisputable on the basis of fact). For any southerner that considers him or herself a conservative or Republican to mouth the lies of that party is a cognitive dissonance of collosal magnitude.

To me it is no different than when todays Muslims say they are against terrorism and suicide bombers, only to say "but" before launching into a rant on Isreal. No difference whatsoever.

739 posted on 05/30/2002 8:20:52 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp;varina davis
Strategy, not tactics on any particular battlefield, is what won the war for the North.

Strategy won? With all due respect, if the Confederacy had not had military leaders like Robert E. Lee, "Stonewall" Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart et al, the war shouldn't have lasted a few months. Robert E. Lee deserves to be exalted.

The Union had vastly superior numbers, almost every warship, munitions factory, the majority of idustrial capacity, medicines, food and other supplies, the federal treasury, a functioning government, and even limited prisoner exchanges/medical resupply to rob the confederacy of soldiers.

The Confederacy was blockaded at the outset to prevent food, medicine and anything from entering. Union ships quickly siezed important ports, or rendered them useless. The Confederacy faced overwhelming numerical odds (4-1), the destruction of food crops, the slaughter of her livestock. Women, children, old men - white and black - were left to defend their homes - and were attacked, raped, killed or simply left to starve. Entire cities were destroyed or reduced to ruins. The Confederates had nothing except honor and courage - the belief that their cause was just and worth dying for.

Instead of a ringing endorsement of the tactical superiority of union military leaders, it is a tribute to the leaders of the Confederate forces. Even with virtually everything against the Confederacy, it still took the union forces more than 4 years to defeat them, and even then it wasn't on the field of battle, but due to starvation and lack of supplies. Yankees are just torqued because they couldn't whip a bunch of farmers in a fair fight, and had to resort to targeting civilians to finally win.

My apologies Ms. Davis, please remember me to your husband ;o)

740 posted on 05/30/2002 9:40:47 PM PDT by 4CJ
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