Posted on 05/20/2002 10:45:00 AM PDT by jennyp
Premiere evolves into protest
Film argues for expanded scope of science education
I do. It's not what you think, especially the quant stuff. Suffice it to say that the predictive powers of political scientists are even more miserable than those of economists. You can make a fat living doing it, don't get me wrong - if you're a whiz with Statistica or SPSS, and you don't mind wallowing in the ludicrously trivial, you can get published in the APSR or AJPS regularly, and be on your way to a tenured position somewhere.
But it's fundamentally dishonest, and restrictive to boot - it's not an empirical science, no matter how much its practitioners wish it to be so, and it's restrictive in the sense that the interesting things about politics and political systems are rarely quantifiable, and reducible to bare statistics suitable for linear regressions and chi-square analyses. By concentrating on that sort of thing, you're effectively giving up the study of about 95% of what the field should be. It's ridiculous, if you ask me. Glorified pollsters and wannabe sociologists, that's what they are. In its most extreme form, quantitative political science is intellectually bankrupt. I've seen it up close and personal, so I am qualified to make this sort of judgment ;)
I hihgly recommend reading the Federalist Papers, when you have the time.
Thank you, I have, many times. The quants are not studying politics in anything resembling a Madisonian sense. I can't express it to you unless you've been there, but pick up any random issue of the American Political Science Review, and you'll see what I mean.
My opinions of the field are hard-won and honestly come by. And after I had them, I dropped SPSS and started reading things like the Federalist Papers, and learned more about politics there than I ever did in front of a nice warm scatter plot ;)
Again, if you wish to study politics, consider it as a specialized field of history, with moderate amounts of philosophy and economics thrown in. It's the only honest way to think of it.
My post, the one you are replying to, did not even mention God other than for the Eastwood quote. You don't know Jack $#!T about any religious beliefs I might have; in fact, the only religious belief of mine which even comes into question wrt evolution is the belief that God gave us brains so we could avoid stupid BS like evolutionism.
As to the idea of "mainstream scientists" all supporting idiot theories like evolution or the "big bang", it's basically only the dead wood amongst scientists. Anybody with the remotest claim to brains or talent has long since abandoned that kind of thinking:
"Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of 'seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them ..." David B. Kitts, PhD (Zoology) Head Curator, Dept of Geology, Stoval Museum Evolution, vol 28, Sep 1974, p 467 "The curious thing is that there is a consistency about the fossil gaps; the fossils are missing in all the important places." Francis Hitching The Neck of the Giraffe or Where Darwin Went Wrong Penguin Books, 1982, p.19 "The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." Stephen Jay Gould, Prof of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University "Is a new general theory of evolution emerging?" Paleobiology, vol 6, January 1980, p. 127 "...Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils ... I will lay it on the line, there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument." Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London As quoted by: L. D. Sunderland Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems 4th edition, Master Books, 1988, p. 89 "We do not have any available fossil group which can categorically be claimed to be the ancestor of any other group. We do not have in the fossil record any specific point of divergence of one life form for another, and generally each of the major life groups has retained its fundamental structural and physiological characteristics throughout its life history and has been conservative in habitat." G. S. Carter, Professor & author Fellow of Corpus Christi College Cambridge, England Structure and Habit in Vertebrate Evolution University of Washington Press, 1967 "The history of most fossil species includes two features inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear ... 2. Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'." Stephen Jay Gould, Prof of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University Natural History, 86(5):13, 1977 "But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" (p. 206) "Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory (of evolution)." (p. 292) Chuck Darwin The Origin of Species, 1st edition reprint Avenel Books, 1979 "Darwin... was embarrassed by the fossil record... we are now about 120-years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, ... some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information." David M. Raup, Curator of Geology Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology" Field Museum of Natural History Vol. 50, No. 1, (Jan, 1979), p. 25 "Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums are filled with over 100-million fossils of 250,000 different species. The availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What is the picture which the fossils have given us? ... The gaps between major groups of organisms have been growing even wide and more undeniable. They can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection of the fossil record." Luther D. Sunderland (Creationist) Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th edition, Master Books, 1988, p. 9 "My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed. ... The fossil material is now so complete that it has been possible to construct new classes, and the lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled." Prof N. Heribert Nilsson Lund University, Sweden Famous botanist and evolutionist As quoted in: The Earth Before Man, p. 51 "The family trees which adorn our text books are based on inference, however, reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." Stephen Jay Gould, Prof of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University "Evolution's Erratic Pace" Natural History, May, 1977, p. 13 "... if man evolved from an apelike creature he did so without leaving a trace of that evolution in the fossil record." Lord Solly Zuckerman, MA, MD, DSc (Anatomy) Prof. of anatomy, University of Birmingham Chief scientific advisor, United Kingdom Beyond the Ivory Tower Taplinger Publishing Company, 1970, p 64 "The entire hominid (a so-called 'ape-man' fossil) collection know today would barely cover a billiard table... Ever since Darwin... preconceptions have led evidence by the nose in the study of fossil man." John Reader "Whatever Happened to Zinjanthropus? New Scientist, March 26, 1981, pp. 802-805 "The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed, with room to spare, inside a single coffin." "Modern apes, for instance, seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans -- of upright, naked, tool-making, big-brained beings -- is, to be honest with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter." Dr. Lyall Watson "The Water People" Science Digest, May 1982, p 44. "The fossil record pertaining to man is still so sparsely known that those who insist on positive declarations can do nothing more than jump from one hazardous surmise to another and hope that the next dramatic discovery does not make them utter fools... As we have seen, there are numerous scientists and popularizers today who have the temerity to tell us that there is 'no doubt' how man originated. If only they had the evidence..." William R. Fix The Bone Peddlers (Macmillan, 1984), pp. 150 "A five million year old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib... The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone." Dr. Tim White Evolutionary anthropologist University of California at Berkeley New Scientist, April 28, 1983, p. 199 "...not being a paleontologist, I don't want to pour too much scorn on paleontologists, but if you were to spend your life picking up bones and finding little fragments of head and little fragments of jaw, there's a very strong desire to exaggerate the importance of those fragments..." Greg Kerby From an address to the Biology Teachers Association of South Australia, 1976 "Echoing the criticism made of his father's Homo habilis skulls, he (Richard Leakey) added that Lucy's skull was so incomplete that most of it was 'imagination, made of plaster of paris,' thus making it impossible to draw any firm conclusion about what species she belonged to." Richard Leakey (Son of Louis Leakey) Director of National Museums of Kenya, Africa The Weekend Australian, May 7-8, 1983, p. 3 "The evidence given above makes it overwhelmingly likely that Lucy was no more than a variety of pygmy chimpanzee, and walked the same way (awkwardly upright on occasions, but mostly quadrupedal). The 'evidence' for the alleged transformation from ape to man is extremely unconvincing." Albert W. Mehlert, Former Evolutionist & paleoanthropology researcher "Lucy - Evolution's Solitary Claim for Ape/Man" Creation Research Society Quarterly, Vol 22, No. 3, (Dec 1985), p. 145 "In recent years several authors have written popular books on human origins which are based more on fantasy and subjectivity than on fact and objectivity... by and large, written by authors with a formal academic background... Prominent among them were On Aggression by Konrad Lorenz, The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris..." (p. 283) "Yet the tendency for individual paleontologists to trace human history directly back to their own fossil finds has persisted to the present day." (p. 285) "So one is forced to conclude that there is no clear cut scientific picture of human evolution." (p. 285) Dr. R. Martin, Senior Research Fellow Zoological Society of London "Man is Not an Onion" New Scientist, Aug 4, 1977 "The paleontologists have convinced me small changes do not accumulate." Francisco Ayala, Ph.d Assoc Professor of Genetics, U of California "Evolutionary theory under fire" Science, Nov 21, 1980. p 883-887 "Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless." Prof. Louis Bounoure, Former: President Biological Society of Strassbourg, Director of the Strassbourg Zoological Museum, Director of Research at the French National Centre of Scientific Research The Advocate, March 8, 1984, p. 17 "We are told dogmatically that Evolution is an established fact; but we are never told who has established it, and by what means. We are told, often enough, that the doctrine is founded upon evidence, and that indeed this evidence 'is henceforward above all verification, as well as being immune from any subsequent contradiction by experience'; but we are left entirely in the dark on the crucial question wherein, precisely, this evidence consists." Wolfgang Smith, Mathematician and Physicist Prof. of Mathematics, Oregon State University Former math instructor at MIT Teilhardism and the New Religion: A Thorough Analysis of the Teachings of de Chardin Tan Books & Publishers, 1988, pp. 1-2 "Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact." Dr. T. N. Tahmisian, Physiologist Atomic Energy Commission. As quoted in: Evolution and the Emperor's New Clothes, 3D Enterprises Limited, 1983, title page "One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a Creator..." Dr. Michael Walker Senior Lecturer, Anthropology, Sydney University Quadrant, Oct 1982, p. 44 "... every single concept advanced by the theory of evolution (and amended thereafter) is imaginary as it is not supported by the scientifically established facts of microbiology, fossils, and mathematical probability concepts. Darwin was wrong." (p. 209) "... The theory of evolution may be the worst mistake made in science." (p. 210) I. L. Cohen, Mathematician, Researcher, Author, Member New York Academy of Sciences Officer of the Archaeological Institute of America Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities "Nine-tenths of the talk on Evolution is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species". Dr Etheridge, world famous paleontologist of the British museum. "If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found to truthfully purport as a transitional specie to man, including Lucy, since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man rather than a gradual process of evolving". Richard Leakey, world's foremost paleoanthropologist, in a PBS documentary, 1990.
Dr. Etheridge, world-famous paleontologist of the British Museum"4 is commonly quoted by evolution deniers but turns out to have been an obscure nineteenth century figure who was an assistant at the British Museum and was never famous at all.Quotations and Misquotations.
Dr. Colin Patterson:
I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false.Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two "Cites"That brush with Sunderland (I had never heard of him before) was my first experience of creationists. The famous "keynote address" at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 was nothing of the sort. . .
Stephen J. Gould:
The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not commonand should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw jointone composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any apes of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern featuresincreasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larder body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?Evolution as Fact and Theory by S.J. Gould.Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I amfor I have become a major target of these practices.
. . .
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationistswhether through design or stupidity, I do not knowas admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
I suspect many of the rest of your quotes are equally bogus. Certainly, old Heribert is almost as out of date as "Dr. Etheridge."
Talk.origins is a known quantity on the internet. It is not a normal forum like FR or your Yahoo discussion groups.
Talk.origins speaks with a single voice. I have recently posted three or four very well reasoned arguments against evolutino on talk.origins and the threads which have evolved around these postings amount to several hundred posts, which range from telling me I don't know what I'm talking about top calling me names.
The point is that on any normal forum, particularly on a topic like evolution on which the nation at large is at best evenly divided, half to a third of the people posting would take my side, as is the case on FR.
The reason that this does not happen on talk.origins is that anti-evolutionists are driven off of talk.origins by the pure viciousness of the evos and typically have a half-life of a few days on the forum.
Naturally the evos on talk.origins don't like seeing those lists of quotations. Their two standard responses are, one that each and every single quote is taken out of context, which is laughable and, two, that most of those quotes appear to be about fifteen or twenty years old and that, since then, all the missing intermediates have been found.
Now, aside from the fact that the claim of having found all the missing intermediates in the last fifteen years is flagrant BS, I have my own theory as to why most of the quotes actually do appear to date from around 1975 - 1985.
That is, that intelligent people and honest people who actually understand the situation, all gave up on evolutionism about that time and went on to other pursuits. For instance:
"At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt."See what I mean?I.L. Cohen, Researcher and Mathematician
Member NY Academy of Sciences
Officer of the Archaeological Inst. of America
Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities
New Research Publications, 1984, p. 4
I assume that Steve Gould is now paying the price for that kind of BS.
The critcism of the event revolves around attacks on the players with nary a contravention of the evidence presented against Evolution save "Since anyone who's actually mastered the material on evolution in a second-year college biology text can refute all this scientific guff without opening the book ...", which is neither authoritative nor truthful. Roger says it's "guff" and we are simply supposed to believe it. Reminds me of all the book reviewers the Evols are wont to trot out recently as authoritaties on Darwin's Musings. And Eugenie Scott a "scientist"? Well, perhaps she has a degree or two but her "work" is about slipery semantics and I encourage all to read it. Do so but also read Icons of Evolution. Then decide.
Thanks for the levity, jennyp.
A nice try at standing the situation on its head. Etheridge really isn't a world-famous paleontologist of the British Museum. Colin Patterson was dishonestly distorted, as he himself agrees. S.J. Gould's article was not written for TalkOrigins. The facts are out there.
TalkOrigins just complies evidence. If their statements are false, then it it would be dishonest to quote them, yes. But if their statements are false, they should be easy to rebut directly, on the facts. You don't attempt to do so. You can't lay a glove on the facts presented.
It is your own posts which blatantly repeat absurd falsehoods and distortions. You revise not a line, despite having rebuttals heaped to the skies around you for years now.
Nobody likes spam.
Yeah there are. As I see it, the universe has always been here and so has God. The creation stories you read in ancient literature invariably refer to our own planet and solar system environment, and not the universe at large.
Having all the mass of the universe condensed to a point would be the mother of all black holes; nothing would ever escape from that, via any sort of a "big bang" or anything else. The "big bang" is based on nothing but a misinterpretation of redshift data which has since been satisfactorily explained.
Likewise having God create the universe from nothing at a single point in time violates any reasonable notion of what God is supposed to be. If God is supposed to be perfect and the idea of creating a universe finally struck him as a cool and worthwhile thing to do 15 billion years ago, then it should have struck him as a cool thing to do aeons before that and the fact that it didn't, interferes with our thinking him to be perfect.
All available evidence points to a universe which has always been around, and to intelligence being part of that universe just like matter and energy are.
" . . . compiles evidence." The lysdexia is kicking in again.
MM
Back in #23, jennyp linked Icons of Obfuscation, which makes a nice reply to your #50. (OK, I'm always stubbing my toe on failing to read the thread before I jump in.)
There are large numbers of the kinds of quotes I cite out there. You basically raise questions about two or three of these and try to somehow or other infer that ALL are somehow twisted or taken out of context and reversed.
That is pitiable and laughable. There may be a problem with who exactly Etheridge was and I'll check that before using that quote again. Patterson's quotes are not arguable and neither are Goulds. If they don't want to be quoted to the effect that there are no intermediate fossils, then they should not make such statements. Gould in particular was trying to have it both ways, making just enough of a statement about the lack of transitionals to defend his own theory which perported to explain that lack, and then doing his little crybaby act when evolutionists quoted him. That's not what I'd call a class act or anything like that.
Indeed there are, many of which are just copyings of the same little snippet, with mispellings and other errors propagated. The people quoting them have of course never read the original source material themselves. A parrot knows about as much of what it is saying.
Want to see it in action? You do a Yahoo! search on "Boy from Tukana" and you get four hits. Number four is our own RaceBannon from September, 1999. Why some threads by Uriel1979 aren't showing up, I don't know. Anyway, "Tukana" is "Turkana" (as in Lake Turkana) misspelled.
You basically raise questions about two or three of these and try to somehow or other infer that ALL are somehow twisted or taken out of context and reversed.
I haven't raised questions, I've shown those quotes to be misrepresentations. How many times do I have to catch you? This is not the first time these things have been pointed out. You shamelessly come back with the exact same thing over and over and over for years and years.
Patterson's quotes are not arguable and neither are Goulds.
Neither Patterson nor Gould agree.
. . . Unfortunately, Dr. Wells is intellectually dishonest. When I first encountered his attempts at journalism, I thought he might be a woefully deficient scholar because his critiques about peppered moth research were full of errors, but soon it became clear that he was intentionally distorting the literature in my field. He lavishly dresses his essays in quotations from experts (including some from me) which are generally taken out of context, and he systematically omits relevant details to make our conclusions seem ill founded, flawed, or fraudulent. Why does he do this? Is his goal to correct science through constructive criticism, or does he a have a different agenda? He never mentions creationism in any form. To be sure, he sticks to the scientific literature, but he misrepresents it. Perhaps it might be kinder to suggest that Wells is simply incompetent, but I think his errors are by intelligent design.Pratt Tribune Archives.Bruce Grant
Professor of Biology
College of William and Mary
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