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["Icons of Evolution"] Premiere Evolves into Protest
The Falcon (Seattle Pacific U. student paper) ^ | 5/15/2002 | Haley Clark

Posted on 05/20/2002 10:45:00 AM PDT by jennyp

Premiere evolves into protest
Film argues for expanded scope of science education


Premiere evolves into protest
Saul Renderfrance

The "Icons of Evolution" documentary, which highlights what some scholars regard as problems with a number of pieces of evidence commonly used to support Darwinian evolution, premiered in Third Gwinn Friday night.

Friday evening’s premiere of the film "Icons of Evolution" met with dissension from people within and without the bounds of SPU.

These dissenters include members of the SPU biology department and a group called Burlington-Edison Committee for Science Education (BECSE).

Prior to the event, in the stairwell inside Gwinn, members of BECSE handed out packets of information about Jonathan Wells, a biologist featured in the film.

The event, which was sponsored by the Political Union Club, the SPU political science department and the Discovery Institute, a non-profit, non-partisan education group based in Seattle, was attended by approximately 500 people, according to John West, Discovery Institute senior fellow and SPU political science chair.

After the film presentation, panelists answered questions posed by 15 to 20 people. The panelists included Wells, Discovery Institute President Bruce Chapman and Roger DeHart, former biology teacher at Burlington-Edison High School, who got reassigned by his school district for teaching biological evidence against evolution and telling students about scientists who were skeptical of Darwin’s theory.

According to an email from Carl Johnson, a member of BECSE, he handed out literature between 6:30 and 7:15 p.m. prior to the 7:30 p.m. event.

Premiere evolves into protest
Saul Renderfrance

Jonathan Wells, microbiologist and author of "Icons of Evolution," participates in a panel that commented on and responded to questions regarding the documentary inspired partly by his book.
"At 7:15 p.m. Mr. Chapman...arrived and was livid at us for handing these out. Five minutes later Campus Security arrived and told us they received a call from those putting on the program that they wanted us removed from the property," Johnson said.

Chapman said that this is incorrect and that he was happy to have the protestors at the event. He talked to them when he walked into Gwinn and was given some of their materials. According to Chapman, he did not call security.

"I was happy to have them there. Unwittingly they served a useful purpose," Chapman said. He also said that the packets of information consisted of personal attacks aimed at Wells, rather than the discussion of issues.

The two packets were entitled; "The Talented Mr. Wells" and "Jonathan Wells: Who is He, What Is He Doing Here, and Why?".

West pointed out the irony in that this same group whose protesting helped get DeHart into trouble with his school district were allowed free speech at Friday’s event. West emphasized the importance of the group members being permitted to have free speech.

"SPU is a university and we should prize discussion of different points of veiw."

According to Director of SPU Safety and Security Mark Reid, security responded to the scene after someone who was concerned that the protestors would disrupt the event alerted security. West said that security responded because he had asked that they be called in case the group decided to disrupt the event by shouting or yelling. He said however, that handing out information was fine with him.

Premiere evolves into protest
Saul Renderfrance

Sophomore Mackensie Rogers asks the panel about possible ways for future biology teachers to avoid the problems that the controversy caused Roger Dehart.
Reid said that they (the group members) were relatively peaceful and just wanted to get their point across.

"We were fine with that," Reid said. "They were not asked to leave campus."

"There were no real difficulties with these guys," Reid said.

Members of BECSE, including Johnson, attended the event.

The film shown at the event presented scientific evidence that questioned the accuracy of evidence that has been used to support Darwinian evolution. One piece of evidence discussed was Darwin’s Galapagos finches. The finches have been used as an example of how changes in the environment can bring about alterations in species’ physical attributes.

According to information presented in the film, the evidence collected to date only shows fluctuations in the finches’ beak size. These fluctuations are dependent on climate and have not produced long-term changes.

SPU senior biology major Nathan Brouwer attended the event.

"I thought it was a really well-made movie," Brouwer said.

However, Brouwer thought that the event used science as a guise for a political agenda of reintroducing God into public school science curriculum.

West commented on this.

"The point of Friday’s event was not about having God in the classroom but about good science education," West said. "[Students] should be exposed to the diversity of scientific opinion about the key evidences for Darwin’s theory."

West said that schools should not teach Darwinian evolution as "unquestioned fact, when it’s not."

Biology Department Chair Rick Ridgway identifies himself as a theistic evolutionist, which means that God as a creator could use evolution to bring about the diversity of organisms.

About a month prior to the event, West sent Ridgway and other faculty members invitations to participate in the panel at the event.

All of the faculty members declined to be panelists.

Ridgway said that he felt it was odd that SPU faculty were invited to be on the panel, but scientists such as Eugenie Scott and Ken Miller, who represented evolutionary support in the film, were not asked to attend.

According to Ridgway, if they had been given around six months’ notice, the science department may have been able to generate funds for bringing one or both of the scientists to the event.

West said that planning for the event only began about six to eight weeks ago, so he could not have given Ridgway six months’ notice. Also, because Darwinian biologists have the majority view, he did not think it would be difficult to get some of them to attend the event.

When Ridgway asked about having Scott or Miller attend the event, West told him that he did not have the money to pay for either of the scientists to attend the event and be part of the panel. However, he said he would have liked for them to attend.

According to West, the Discovery Institute did not have to pay for Wells and DeHart to attend the event because they live in the area. But Scott and Miller live in San Francisco and Rhode Island, respectively, according to West.

West said that he did not feel that the presence of Scott and Miller was necessary for having a meaningful discussion at the event.

According to Ridgway, the goal of the Discovery Institute is to remove evolutionary theory from high schools and substitute intelligent design theory, or at least make the theories equal.

West said that this is an incorrect assertion. "The goal of the Discovery Institute is far from wanting evolution removed from the classroom," West said. "Discovery Institute adopts the approach that we ought to teach more about evolution and not less, and that includes problems with [evolutionary] theory."

Ridgway said that as a field, science is designed to look at the natural world and not to take a stand on whether or not God exists. He said that so far there is no empirical evidence to support intelligent design theory.

According to West, the theory of intelligent design is that "the specified complexity that we see [in the universe] is best explained as a product of an intellectual cause rather than being caused by chance and necessity," West said.

According to Ridgway, prior to the event, he sent an email to West and copied it to President Phil Eaton and other members of the administration.

According to Ridgway, his email said, "My concern here is simply that SPU and the Discovery Institute be seen as separate entities, and more specifically that the underlying political objectives of the Discovery Institute Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture not be assumed to be the official stance of the university."

"The university does not take an official stance on evolution," Ridgway said.

According to Ridgway, after he sent out the email, West contacted him and said that he would be happy to make an announcement at the event saying that the views of the Discovery Institute are not necessarily the views of SPU. "I was happy to do that," West said.

However, West said that he did not recall any other event at SPU in which that kind of announcement has been made. He pointed out that at a university there are many events that espouse differing points of view.

SPU sophomore Mackensie Rogers attended the film premiere. Rogers is a biology major who plans to teach high school biology.

Rogers agreed with West that evolution is only a theory.

"A lot of the high school text books have it (evolution) as being the total truth and it’s not, it’s just a theory," Rogers said. "It isn’t science if you’re only seeing one side."

"I’m just really glad I was able to go to [the event]."



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevolist; discoveryinstitute; evolution; intelligentdesign; msbogusvirus
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: inquest
I don't know what exactly they teach in political science classes...

I do. It's not what you think, especially the quant stuff. Suffice it to say that the predictive powers of political scientists are even more miserable than those of economists. You can make a fat living doing it, don't get me wrong - if you're a whiz with Statistica or SPSS, and you don't mind wallowing in the ludicrously trivial, you can get published in the APSR or AJPS regularly, and be on your way to a tenured position somewhere.

But it's fundamentally dishonest, and restrictive to boot - it's not an empirical science, no matter how much its practitioners wish it to be so, and it's restrictive in the sense that the interesting things about politics and political systems are rarely quantifiable, and reducible to bare statistics suitable for linear regressions and chi-square analyses. By concentrating on that sort of thing, you're effectively giving up the study of about 95% of what the field should be. It's ridiculous, if you ask me. Glorified pollsters and wannabe sociologists, that's what they are. In its most extreme form, quantitative political science is intellectually bankrupt. I've seen it up close and personal, so I am qualified to make this sort of judgment ;)

I hihgly recommend reading the Federalist Papers, when you have the time.

Thank you, I have, many times. The quants are not studying politics in anything resembling a Madisonian sense. I can't express it to you unless you've been there, but pick up any random issue of the American Political Science Review, and you'll see what I mean.

My opinions of the field are hard-won and honestly come by. And after I had them, I dropped SPSS and started reading things like the Federalist Papers, and learned more about politics there than I ever did in front of a nice warm scatter plot ;)

Again, if you wish to study politics, consider it as a specialized field of history, with moderate amounts of philosophy and economics thrown in. It's the only honest way to think of it.

41 posted on 05/20/2002 8:21:31 PM PDT by general_re
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: theprogrammer
To imagine that your god can do anything, but design a universe similar to the one that mainstream scientists of today are describing is an insult to your god.

My post, the one you are replying to, did not even mention God other than for the Eastwood quote. You don't know Jack $#!T about any religious beliefs I might have; in fact, the only religious belief of mine which even comes into question wrt evolution is the belief that God gave us brains so we could avoid stupid BS like evolutionism.

As to the idea of "mainstream scientists" all supporting idiot theories like evolution or the "big bang", it's basically only the dead wood amongst scientists. Anybody with the remotest claim to brains or talent has long since abandoned that kind of thinking:



"Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of 'seeing'
evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the 
most notorious of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record.
Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does
not provide them ..."

    David B.  Kitts, PhD (Zoology)
    Head Curator, Dept of Geology, Stoval Museum
    Evolution, vol 28, Sep 1974, p 467

"The curious thing is that there is a consistency about the fossil gaps; 
the fossils are missing in all the important places." 
 
    Francis Hitching 
    The Neck of the Giraffe or  Where Darwin Went Wrong 
    Penguin Books, 1982, p.19 
 
"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major 
transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our 
imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been 
a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." 
 
    Stephen Jay Gould,  Prof of Geology and 
    Paleontology, Harvard University 
    "Is a new general theory of evolution emerging?" 
    Paleobiology, vol 6, January 1980, p. 127 
 
"...Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when 
they say there are no transitional fossils ... I will lay it on the line, 
there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight 
argument." 
 
    Dr.  Colin Patterson,  Senior Paleontologist, 
    British Museum of Natural History, London 
    As quoted by:  L. D. Sunderland 
    Darwin's Enigma:  Fossils and Other Problems 
    4th edition, Master Books, 1988, p. 89 
 
"We do not have any available fossil group which can categorically be 
claimed to be the ancestor of any other group. We do not have in the fossil 
record any specific point of divergence of one life form for another, and 
generally each of the major life groups has retained its fundamental 
structural and physiological characteristics throughout its life history 
and has been conservative in habitat." 
 
    G. S. Carter, Professor & author 
    Fellow of Corpus Christi College 
    Cambridge, England 
    Structure and Habit in Vertebrate Evolution 
    University of Washington Press, 1967 
 
"The history of most fossil species includes two features inconsistent with 
gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during 
their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the 
same as when they disappear ... 2. Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a 
species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its 
ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'." 
 
    Stephen Jay Gould, Prof of Geology and 
     Paleontology, Harvard University 
    Natural History, 86(5):13, 1977 
 
"But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, 
why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the 
earth?" (p. 206) 
 
"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such 
intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely 
graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps is the most obvious and gravest 
objection which can be urged against my theory (of evolution)." (p. 292) 
 
    Chuck Darwin 
    The Origin of Species, 1st edition reprint 
    Avenel Books, 1979 
 

"Darwin... was embarrassed by the fossil record... we are now about
120-years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been
greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the
situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still
surprisingly jerky and, ironically, ... some of the classic cases of
Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse
in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more
detailed information."
 
    David M. Raup, Curator of Geology 
    Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago
    "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology" 
    Field Museum of Natural History 
    Vol. 50, No. 1, (Jan, 1979), p. 25 
 
"Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological 
exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely 
more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been 
discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums are 
filled with over 100-million fossils of 250,000 different species. The 
availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit 
objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What 
is the picture which the fossils have given us? ... The gaps between major 
groups of organisms have been growing even wide and more undeniable. They 
can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection 
of the fossil record." 
 
    Luther D. Sunderland (Creationist) 
    Darwin's Enigma:  Fossils and Other Problems, 
    4th edition, Master Books, 1988, p. 9 
 
"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more 
than 40 years have completely failed. ... The fossil material is now so 
complete that it has been possible to construct new classes, and the lack 
of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of 
material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled." 
 
    Prof  N. Heribert Nilsson 
    Lund University, Sweden 
    Famous botanist and evolutionist 
    As quoted in:  The Earth Before Man, p. 51 



"The family trees which adorn our text books are based on inference,
however, reasonable, not the evidence of fossils."

    Stephen Jay Gould,  Prof of Geology and
    Paleontology, Harvard University
    "Evolution's Erratic Pace"
    Natural History, May, 1977, p. 13

"... if man evolved from an apelike creature he did so without leaving a
trace of that evolution in the fossil record."

    Lord Solly Zuckerman, MA, MD, DSc (Anatomy)
    Prof. of anatomy, University of Birmingham
    Chief scientific advisor, United Kingdom
    Beyond the Ivory Tower
    Taplinger Publishing Company, 1970, p 64

"The entire hominid (a so-called 'ape-man' fossil) collection know today
would barely cover a billiard table... Ever since Darwin... preconceptions
have led evidence by the nose in the study of fossil man."

    John Reader
    "Whatever Happened to Zinjanthropus?
    New Scientist, March 26, 1981, pp. 802-805

"The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are
still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the
physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed, with
room to spare, inside a single coffin."

"Modern apes, for instance, seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have
no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans -- of
upright, naked, tool-making, big-brained beings -- is, to be honest with
ourselves, an equally mysterious matter."

    Dr.  Lyall Watson
    "The Water People"
    Science Digest, May 1982, p 44.

"The fossil record pertaining to man is still so sparsely known that those
who insist on positive declarations can do nothing more than jump from one
hazardous surmise to another and hope that the next dramatic discovery does
not make them utter fools... As we have seen, there are numerous scientists
and popularizers today who have the temerity to tell us that there is 'no
doubt' how man originated. If only they had the evidence..."

    William R. Fix
    The Bone Peddlers (Macmillan, 1984), pp. 150

"A five million year old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone
of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib... The problem
with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid
that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone."

    Dr. Tim White
    Evolutionary anthropologist
    University of California at Berkeley
    New Scientist, April 28, 1983, p. 199

"...not being a paleontologist, I don't want to pour too much scorn on
paleontologists, but if you were to spend your life picking up bones and
finding little fragments of head and little fragments of jaw, there's a
very strong desire to exaggerate the importance of those fragments..."

    Greg Kerby
    From an address to the Biology Teachers
        Association of South Australia, 1976

"Echoing the criticism made of his father's Homo habilis skulls, he
(Richard Leakey) added that Lucy's skull was so incomplete that most of it
was 'imagination, made of plaster of paris,' thus making it impossible to
draw any firm conclusion about what species she belonged to."

    Richard Leakey  (Son of Louis Leakey)
    Director of National Museums of Kenya, Africa
    The Weekend Australian, May 7-8, 1983, p. 3

"The evidence given above makes it overwhelmingly likely that Lucy was no
more than a variety of pygmy chimpanzee, and walked the same way (awkwardly
upright on occasions, but mostly quadrupedal). The 'evidence' for the
alleged transformation from ape to man is extremely unconvincing."

    Albert W. Mehlert,  Former Evolutionist &
       paleoanthropology researcher
    "Lucy - Evolution's Solitary Claim for Ape/Man"
    Creation Research Society Quarterly,
    Vol 22, No. 3, (Dec 1985), p. 145

 
"In recent years several authors have written popular books on human
origins which are based more on fantasy and subjectivity than on fact and
objectivity... by and large, written by authors with a formal academic
background... Prominent among them were On Aggression by Konrad Lorenz, The
Naked Ape and The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris..." (p. 283)

"Yet the tendency for individual paleontologists to trace human history
directly back to their own fossil finds has persisted to the present day."
(p. 285)

"So one is forced to conclude that there is no clear cut scientific picture
of human evolution." (p. 285)

    Dr.  R.  Martin, Senior Research Fellow
    Zoological Society of London
    "Man is Not an Onion"
    New Scientist, Aug 4, 1977


"The paleontologists have convinced me small changes do not accumulate."

    Francisco Ayala, Ph.d
    Assoc Professor of Genetics, U of California
    "Evolutionary theory under fire"
    Science, Nov 21, 1980.  p 883-887


"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing
in the progress of science. It is useless."

    Prof. Louis Bounoure, Former:
    President Biological Society of Strassbourg,
    Director of the Strassbourg Zoological Museum,
    Director of Research at the
       French National Centre of Scientific Research
    The Advocate, March 8, 1984, p. 17



"We are told dogmatically that Evolution is an established fact; but we are
never told who has established it, and by what means. We are told, often
enough, that the doctrine is founded upon evidence, and that indeed this
evidence 'is henceforward above all verification, as well as being immune
from any subsequent contradiction by experience'; but we are left entirely
in the dark on the crucial question wherein, precisely, this evidence
consists."

    Wolfgang Smith, Mathematician and Physicist
    Prof. of Mathematics, Oregon State University
    Former math instructor at MIT
    Teilhardism and the New Religion:
       A Thorough Analysis of the Teachings of de Chardin
    Tan Books & Publishers, 1988, pp. 1-2

"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are
great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax
ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact."

    Dr.  T. N.  Tahmisian, Physiologist
    Atomic Energy Commission.  As quoted in:
    Evolution and the Emperor's New Clothes,
    3D Enterprises Limited, 1983, title page


"One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay
lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a
Creator..."

    Dr.  Michael Walker
    Senior Lecturer, Anthropology, Sydney University
    Quadrant, Oct 1982, p. 44


"... every single concept advanced by the theory of evolution (and amended
thereafter) is imaginary as it is not supported by the scientifically
established facts of microbiology, fossils, and mathematical probability
concepts. Darwin was wrong." (p. 209)

"... The theory of evolution may be the worst mistake made in science." (p.
210)

    I. L. Cohen, Mathematician, Researcher, Author,
    Member New York Academy of Sciences
    Officer of the Archaeological Institute of America
    Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities



"Nine-tenths of the talk on Evolution is sheer nonsense, not founded on 
observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs 
of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not 
a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species". 

Dr Etheridge, world famous paleontologist of the British museum.



"If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that 
all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found 
to truthfully purport as a transitional specie to man, including Lucy, 
since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have 
to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man 
rather than a gradual process of evolving". 

Richard Leakey, world's foremost paleoanthropologist, in a PBS documentary, 
1990.



43 posted on 05/20/2002 9:31:47 PM PDT by medved
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To: jennyp
And how about a 'bump' for the family of amoebas in my fishpond who are frantically trying to "evolve" as fast as possible in order to participate in this thread?
44 posted on 05/20/2002 9:41:21 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: medved
Did I answer you earlier on "God Hates Idiots Too?"
46 posted on 05/21/2002 5:58:07 AM PDT by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: medved
Dr. Etheridge, world-famous paleontologist of the British Museum"4 is commonly quoted by evolution deniers but turns out to have been an obscure nineteenth century figure who was an assistant at the British Museum and was never famous at all.
Quotations and Misquotations.

Dr. Colin Patterson:

I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false.

That brush with Sunderland (I had never heard of him before) was my first experience of creationists. The famous "keynote address" at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 was nothing of the sort. . .

Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two "Cites"

Stephen J. Gould:

The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common—and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw joint—one composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any ape’s of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern features—increasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larder body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices.

. . .

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

Evolution as Fact and Theory by S.J. Gould.

I suspect many of the rest of your quotes are equally bogus. Certainly, old Heribert is almost as out of date as "Dr. Etheridge."

47 posted on 05/21/2002 6:15:11 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
First off, I view the talk.origins FAQ system as dishonest and ideologically motivated. Your continued use of their materials as arguments is dishonest on your part, in my view.

Talk.origins is a known quantity on the internet. It is not a normal forum like FR or your Yahoo discussion groups.

Talk.origins speaks with a single voice. I have recently posted three or four very well reasoned arguments against evolutino on talk.origins and the threads which have evolved around these postings amount to several hundred posts, which range from telling me I don't know what I'm talking about top calling me names.

The point is that on any normal forum, particularly on a topic like evolution on which the nation at large is at best evenly divided, half to a third of the people posting would take my side, as is the case on FR.

The reason that this does not happen on talk.origins is that anti-evolutionists are driven off of talk.origins by the pure viciousness of the evos and typically have a half-life of a few days on the forum.

Naturally the evos on talk.origins don't like seeing those lists of quotations. Their two standard responses are, one that each and every single quote is taken out of context, which is laughable and, two, that most of those quotes appear to be about fifteen or twenty years old and that, since then, all the missing intermediates have been found.

Now, aside from the fact that the claim of having found all the missing intermediates in the last fifteen years is flagrant BS, I have my own theory as to why most of the quotes actually do appear to date from around 1975 - 1985.

That is, that intelligent people and honest people who actually understand the situation, all gave up on evolutionism about that time and went on to other pursuits. For instance:

"At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt."

I.L. Cohen, Researcher and Mathematician
Member NY Academy of Sciences
Officer of the Archaeological Inst. of America
Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities
New Research Publications, 1984, p. 4

See what I mean?
48 posted on 05/21/2002 7:16:22 AM PDT by medved
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To: VadeRetro
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists-whether through design or stupidity, I do not know-as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

I assume that Steve Gould is now paying the price for that kind of BS.

49 posted on 05/21/2002 7:19:21 AM PDT by medved
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To: jennyp
Roger Downey writes "...the fingerprints of Seattle's neoconservative Discovery Institute (DI) are all over the film." This is a surprise? From the SPU article: "The event, which was sponsored by the Political Union Club, the SPU political science department and the Discovery Institute..." And "fingerprints"? Downey charges the work is a "...covert ideological infomercial." "Covert"? Well, hardly. "Ideological"? Certainly not established. "Infomercial"? Not according to the attendees. We conclude that Downey cannot be accused of being an unbiased reporter.

The critcism of the event revolves around attacks on the players with nary a contravention of the evidence presented against Evolution save "Since anyone who's actually mastered the material on evolution in a second-year college biology text can refute all this scientific guff without opening the book ...", which is neither authoritative nor truthful. Roger says it's "guff" and we are simply supposed to believe it. Reminds me of all the book reviewers the Evols are wont to trot out recently as authoritaties on Darwin's Musings. And Eugenie Scott a "scientist"? Well, perhaps she has a degree or two but her "work" is about slipery semantics and I encourage all to read it. Do so but also read Icons of Evolution. Then decide.

Thanks for the levity, jennyp.

50 posted on 05/21/2002 7:20:00 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: medved
First off, I view the talk.origins FAQ system as dishonest and ideologically motivated. Your continued use of their materials as arguments is dishonest on your part, in my view.

A nice try at standing the situation on its head. Etheridge really isn't a world-famous paleontologist of the British Museum. Colin Patterson was dishonestly distorted, as he himself agrees. S.J. Gould's article was not written for TalkOrigins. The facts are out there.

TalkOrigins just complies evidence. If their statements are false, then it it would be dishonest to quote them, yes. But if their statements are false, they should be easy to rebut directly, on the facts. You don't attempt to do so. You can't lay a glove on the facts presented.

It is your own posts which blatantly repeat absurd falsehoods and distortions. You revise not a line, despite having rebuttals heaped to the skies around you for years now.

Nobody likes spam.

51 posted on 05/21/2002 7:26:10 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: theprogrammer
There are no other logical possibilities.

Yeah there are. As I see it, the universe has always been here and so has God. The creation stories you read in ancient literature invariably refer to our own planet and solar system environment, and not the universe at large.

Having all the mass of the universe condensed to a point would be the mother of all black holes; nothing would ever escape from that, via any sort of a "big bang" or anything else. The "big bang" is based on nothing but a misinterpretation of redshift data which has since been satisfactorily explained.

Likewise having God create the universe from nothing at a single point in time violates any reasonable notion of what God is supposed to be. If God is supposed to be perfect and the idea of creating a universe finally struck him as a cool and worthwhile thing to do 15 billion years ago, then it should have struck him as a cool thing to do aeons before that and the fact that it didn't, interferes with our thinking him to be perfect.

All available evidence points to a universe which has always been around, and to intelligence being part of that universe just like matter and energy are.

52 posted on 05/21/2002 7:28:13 AM PDT by medved
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To: VadeRetro
TalkOrigins just complies evidence.

" . . . compiles evidence." The lysdexia is kicking in again.

53 posted on 05/21/2002 7:30:00 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: gore3000
Bravo, Gore3000. Very well said. Keep up the good fight. :)

MM

54 posted on 05/21/2002 7:30:15 AM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: Phaedrus
"...slip[p]ery semantics..."
55 posted on 05/21/2002 7:32:16 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: Phaedrus
You've supplied a little levity yourself, Phaed!

Back in #23, jennyp linked Icons of Obfuscation, which makes a nice reply to your #50. (OK, I'm always stubbing my toe on failing to read the thread before I jump in.)

56 posted on 05/21/2002 7:34:45 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
A nice try at standing the situation on its head. Etheridge really isn't a world-famous paleontologist of the British Museum. Colin Patterson was dishonestly distorted, as he himself agrees. S.J. Gould's article was not written for TalkOrigins. The facts are out there.

There are large numbers of the kinds of quotes I cite out there. You basically raise questions about two or three of these and try to somehow or other infer that ALL are somehow twisted or taken out of context and reversed.

That is pitiable and laughable. There may be a problem with who exactly Etheridge was and I'll check that before using that quote again. Patterson's quotes are not arguable and neither are Goulds. If they don't want to be quoted to the effect that there are no intermediate fossils, then they should not make such statements. Gould in particular was trying to have it both ways, making just enough of a statement about the lack of transitionals to defend his own theory which perported to explain that lack, and then doing his little crybaby act when evolutionists quoted him. That's not what I'd call a class act or anything like that.

57 posted on 05/21/2002 7:41:26 AM PDT by medved
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To: medved
There are large numbers of the kinds of quotes I cite out there.

Indeed there are, many of which are just copyings of the same little snippet, with mispellings and other errors propagated. The people quoting them have of course never read the original source material themselves. A parrot knows about as much of what it is saying.

Want to see it in action? You do a Yahoo! search on "Boy from Tukana" and you get four hits. Number four is our own RaceBannon from September, 1999. Why some threads by Uriel1979 aren't showing up, I don't know. Anyway, "Tukana" is "Turkana" (as in Lake Turkana) misspelled.

You basically raise questions about two or three of these and try to somehow or other infer that ALL are somehow twisted or taken out of context and reversed.

I haven't raised questions, I've shown those quotes to be misrepresentations. How many times do I have to catch you? This is not the first time these things have been pointed out. You shamelessly come back with the exact same thing over and over and over for years and years.

Patterson's quotes are not arguable and neither are Goulds.

Neither Patterson nor Gould agree.

58 posted on 05/21/2002 7:52:37 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: medved; Phaedrus
More on why not just any quote you can mine is valid:

. . . Unfortunately, Dr. Wells is intellectually dishonest. When I first encountered his attempts at journalism, I thought he might be a woefully deficient scholar because his critiques about peppered moth research were full of errors, but soon it became clear that he was intentionally distorting the literature in my field. He lavishly dresses his essays in quotations from experts (including some from me) which are generally taken out of context, and he systematically omits relevant details to make our conclusions seem ill founded, flawed, or fraudulent. Why does he do this? Is his goal to correct science through constructive criticism, or does he a have a different agenda? He never mentions creationism in any form. To be sure, he sticks to the scientific literature, but he misrepresents it. Perhaps it might be kinder to suggest that Wells is simply incompetent, but I think his errors are by intelligent design.

Bruce Grant

Professor of Biology

College of William and Mary

Pratt Tribune Archives.
59 posted on 05/21/2002 8:07:40 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: jennyp
bump
60 posted on 05/21/2002 8:21:43 AM PDT by VOA
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