Fortuyn Party Soars in Polls

BBC News ^ | 13 May 2002

[Phillip Augustus]

Lame comparision. The European settlers of North and South America conquered the land. If the Muslims throughout the world are militarily capable of conquering Western homelands, let them try their hand. Otherwise, they have no inherent claim to such lands, and the indigenous people therein have no obligation to turn their lands over to alien cultures.

[ValenB4]

I think it's time to put the "Christian" back into Christian Democrats. It would also be nice to put the "conservative" back into compassionate conservatism.

[ValenB4]

Don't be so pessimistic. Hardly anyone, besides us political junkies, was even aware of this problem a year ago. People are talking and thinking about this. When push comes to shove, people are going to want to preserve their country and their civilization.

One thing that I can't figure out is why, if immigration is needed so badly in Europe, do they not shift to migrants from Central & South America, and Eastern Europe, home to people eager to assimilate.

[austinTparty]

Lame comparision. The European settlers of North and South America conquered the land. If the Muslims throughout the world are militarily capable of conquering Western homelands, let them try their hand. Otherwise, they have no inherent claim to such lands, and the indigenous people therein have no obligation to turn their lands over to alien cultures.

So. Your new criterion for allowing people to inhabit a land is military conquest...well, that doesn't really quite square with your earlier assertion "Netherlands for the Dutch, France for the French, etc.". To be logically consistent, you should say "land for whoever can conquer it militarily". Unless, of course, you agree that whoever is born in a particular country should be considered a citizen of it, but somehow, methinks you'd be all against that...

Hmm... what should happen, in your mind, then, if, say, a Dutchman and an Englishwoman have a child: split the difference and throw it into the North Sea? Or would you rather institute some nice little laws against miscegenation, just to keep the "races" pure?

Quite frankly (and this is more for the benefit of those non-knee-jerkers out there), immigration would cease to be a contentious issue if we got rid of the welfare state. Immigrants who come willing to work hard and not live on the dole should be welcomed with open arms. They contribute mightily to growth in productivity, and growth in productivity fuels capitalism. Growth in capitalism fuels economic freedom, and economic and political freedom are inseperable.

[Phillip Augustus]

Ah geez, a neo-con. Yep, we'll just have open borders, but we'll make sure to sure to insist on assimilation! That'll work, all right! And it's even more likely to work given Leftist, elitist control of all American cultural institutions- and a consequent message of contempt of America to immigrants and natives alike from those very institutions.

Tell you what- please list the nation or peoples of a landmass who have, throughout history, VOLUNTARILY allowed themselves to become a minority in their own homeland? Has it ever happened? No? Then why do social engineering Leftists, and their neo-con allies insist that it happen in this day and age---but ONLY to European homelands and peoples?

As for your gratuitous and irrelevant comment on "miscegenation", laws against such are completely inappropriate in my mind, as I may be a paleo, but also a libertarian. But, since you brought it up, what in the world prompts you to call a Dutch-English birth "miscegenation"?

[austinTparty]

Ah geez, a neo-con. Yep, we'll just have open borders, but we'll make sure to sure to insist on assimilation! That'll work, all right! And it's even more likely to work given Leftist, elitist control of all American cultural institutions- and a consequent message of contempt of America to immigrants and natives alike from those very institutions. Tell you what- please list the nation or peoples of a landmass who have, throughout history, VOLUNTARILY allowed themselves to become a minority in their own homeland? Has it ever happened? No? Then why do social engineering Leftists, and their neo-con allies insist that it happen in this day and age---but ONLY to European homelands and peoples?

As for your gratuitous and irrelevant comment on "miscegenation", laws against such are completely inappropriate in my mind, as I may be a paleo, but also a libertarian. But, since you brought it up, what in the world prompts you to call a Dutch-English birth "miscegenation"?

To begin with: nope, not a neo-con (ooo, that was a nasty slur!). Interesting how you define neo-con, though--anyone who is not anti-immigration? Next: comment on miscegenation--not gratuitous, nor irrelevant. Your comment about "Netherlands for the Dutch, etc." prompted it. Or how DO you define "Dutch" or "French"? By blood? By place of birth? If it's by place of birth, then you nullified your premise. If it's by blood, then the only way to maintain "Netherlands for the Dutch and France for the French, etc." is to not intermarry, n'est-ce pas? Logical consistency, my friend. Additionally, you call yourself libertarian? I think you will find that libertarians (yes, with a small "L") generally tend to favor immigration.

Just for the record, however, I don't disagree with Mr. Fortuyn on certain counts: non-assimilating Muslims are causing problems in many of their "host countries" (and no, I don't believe in cultural relativity, I do believe that American/Western civ is inherently superior to others, especially in its recognition of the concept of natural law, the Rights of Man and the dignity of the individual)--however, there would be no incentive for them to emigrate to these countries if the welfare state were not so "generous". Immigrants who are putting in 14-hour at the auto-body shop, busting their butts cleaning house and mowing lawns or 16-hour days in the fields are just too damn tired to plan terrorist attacks.

And, again, read up on your history: American culture is not static. The American Southwest has ALWAYS (let me repeat that, since it obviously is not getting through to many people) ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been influenced by Hispanic culture, and California has ALWAYS been influenced by Asian culture. But what makes us Americans is not whether we eat Wonderbread rather than tortillas or pita bread (thank GOD for that), but a common belief in those basic principles outlined in the Constitution and the Declaration, the dignity of the individual and what constitutes civil society.

And a last general commentary... Every generation has its cultural scapegoat. Oh, those *insert one of the follwing here: the Irish, the Chinese, the Germans, the Poles, the Vietnamese...*, they're overwhelming our Anglo-Saxon culture. America will never survive their invasion! Well, history has proven this "conventional wisdom" wrong time after time. Dismantle the welfare state and teach American values and you have a much better answer. (But then, Paleos never could quite reconcile the concept of individual freedom with their desire to control individual's actions...)

[monkeyshine]

Yes, it looks as if Dutch people want to clamp down on the number of Islamic immigrants entering their country. I wonder why that would be?

Maybe it's because there have been some high profile "honor killings", whereby the Muslim father murders his daughter to protect the family's "name".

[xJones]

Let's see, right now it is Monday, May 13 @ 8:35pm in most of Texas. In Amsterdam it's Tuesday, May 14 @ 3:35am. So the final count for the Dutch elections on the 15th will be in around 9pm your time and 2pm here. Thanks in advance for your reporting. This could/should be great.

[Kermit]

That was the line that leapt off the screen at me. A couple of days ago, an wishful thinking article was posted on how Pim Fortuyn's Party was falling apart and it's votes were going to go back to the Christian Democrats and Labor. HA!

The election is on Wednesday.

[RodgerD]

If you know any Swedish au pairs who would like to care for a 56 yr. old let me know.:>)

Our friend's Norwegian au pair, after 6 months of erratic behavior, which included smashing up the family car, ran off last Saturday...apparently to become a stripper. If she ever turns up, however, we'll send her your way.

[Anamensis]

I think it pretty clearly translates as "I, wheezer, am not at your service".

To a chance observer, it translates as "nevermind, I've started something I can't finish."

[Anamensis]

immigration would cease to be a contentious issue if we got rid of the welfare state.

That's a good point.

[wheezer]

Really, I consider it never to be one's oblgation to particpate in a game where one simply does not accept the premise. Broad brushing racial stereotypes, wheteher to denigrate one group, or declare another to have overall "net pluses" is one I'll pass on.

I'm not a fan of our current immigration policies and basically agreed with Pat Buchannan on the matter when it was fashionable to ridicule him for his "xenophobic" views.

[justshutupandtakeit]

A Seven Days in May fan?

[justshutupandtakeit]

I specialize in the socialization of wild strippers. Have you ever heard of my tax-exempt foundation, The Association for the Assimilation of Alien Ecdysiasts?

I emphasize one on one contact.

[Anamensis]

I suspect you, Laz, and I all have pretty similar views on immigration. But he was pointing out that we have not really benefited in any way that we can see from the incoming Muslim hoardes, and you accused him of "painting with a broad brush." He asked you if you could counter his point in any way, and you couldn't. Sometimes that broad-brush approach, while lacking in "sophistication" and "nuance" and "subtlety" and all the other new-age values, is simply... accurate. We are not benefiting from an influx of people who embrace values diametrically opposed to our own. It's not even necessary to say "they are bad and we are good." We are incompatible and there is nothing wrong with saying so.

[wheezer]

I suspect you, Laz, and I all have pretty similar views on immigration.

I would suspect you are correct.

We are incompatible and there is nothing wrong with saying so.

I'm not convinced of that, but after the next attack...it's not gonna' matter anyway as IMHO, American streets will run red with their blood.

[Anamensis]

You're not convinced that we are incompatible or you're not convinced that it's okay to say so?