Jenin: the bloody truth

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,178-273694,00.html ^ | April 21, 2002 | Marie Colvin

[TomB]

Your,,,,, err,,,,,point is understood and noted, but please nazi Tom, if this isn't always the case, please provide us with some historic examples to support your conclusion.

Exactly what conclusion are you talking about? I have made the statement that land changes ownership via wars of conquest. I hope you wouldn't need examples of that? I have also made the statement that the previous statement isn't ALWAYS the case, Japan and Germany in WWII.

Did the Sinai become Israeli's property simply because it was they who conquered it?

Yes.

Also, if your peculiar land changing theory is correct, would Tel Aviv become the property of Palestine, if somehow tomorrow it were captured by waves of Arafat's walking bombs?

Unlikely. But if the Palis would grow some balls, use the millions of dollars other Arab countries give them and buy military equipment, and then invade and take over Israel, yes, they would claim it as their own. Would the US recognize the new country? No. But since all the other countries in the area would, it doesn't matter.

I suspect you're inventing and applying another round of 'neocon foreign policy rules?,which are crafted solely in Israeli's best interest.

Obviously not. I'm just pointing out the facts of history.

These ad hoc rules go something like this, "What's ours is theirs, and what's theirs is theirs."

More words in my mouth. You do a nice job of debating yourself.

Sorry bub, the world isn't buying your swill....

You globalist swine don't intimidate me.

[TomB]

WHoops! I almost forgot to ask you:

Where is the evidence of the "massacre" at Jenin? And what about those aerial pictures?

[section9]

Jethro stopped looking for the Juden under the bed long enough to type:

Your,,,,, err,,,,,point is understood and noted, but please nazi Tom, if this isn't always the case, please provide us with some historic examples to support your conclusion.

Now, now, stop with the projection. Haven't you burned enough Torah scrolls for one day?

Did the Sinai become Israeli's property simply because it was they who conquered it?

No. But it was in Israel's national interest to give it back.

Also, if your peculiar land changing theory is correct, would Tel Aviv become the property of Palestine, if somehow tomorrow it were captured by waves of Arafat's walking bombs?

Again no, but I don't expect that Arafat's people would even dream of giving Tel Aviv back to the Jews. However, your protestations do not alter the fact that territorial conquest often precedes territorial acquisition. Ask any American Indian.

I suspect you're inventing and applying another round of 'neocon foreign policy rules‘,which are crafted solely in Israeli's best interest.

As Israel is an ally of the United States, and as Israel is the sole democracy in a region ruled by cads, mountebanks, petroleum monarchs, and psychopaths, there are times when these so-called "neocon" policies of the U.S. Government make eminent good sense.

These ad hoc rules go something like this, "What's ours is theirs, and what's theirs is theirs."

Okay, see if you can get it right. Are you speaking of the Israelis or the Pallies, or the Americans, or all three? I suspect that you're posting yet another example of the perfidy inherent in the Zionist Entity. There have been plenty of examples, beginning in the Sinai in 1956 all the way through Camp David, in which the U.S. and Israel's interests have diverged. For instance, if you'll recall, we forced the IDF to halt its advance on Damascus in 1973 when President Nixon believed that such an action might bring about Soviet intervention. We pushed the Israelis and Barak to offer more to Arafat at Camp David. That's just two examples of the U.S. asserting its interest in no uncertain terms.

We didn't force Sharon to suspend his operation because we didn't want to! We had Special Forces on the ground, working with the IDF, because we wanted to get our hands on some of the intelligence that the Israelis had tying the PA to Saddam, and, indirectly, to al-Qaeda.

Sorry bub, the world isn't buying your swill....

Oh right, like your pseudointellectual malt liquor is going over like gangbusters in comparison!

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[section9]

You already have section8....

You realize, of course, that you've just admitted that you can't debate your way out of a paper bag.

What a clown, what a bozo, what an intellectual fast-buck artist! Go drown your sorrows with Robert Fisk!

Now, back to "Summer Camp" with you...

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[Gargantua]

"I eventually gained access last Tuesday, walking in with as open a mind as I could muster."

To the author of this liberal trash piece:

Really? Try harder next time. Did you walk through Berlin in the 1940's after the USAF/RAF retaliated for the bombing of London? Would your mind have been "open" then?

War is hell. Muster this.

[TomB]

Obviously, there is so little hope of supporting your arguments, that you are simply playing games, but I'll play along....

Yes, I want examples.

Examples? Of land changing ownership via wars of conquest? Are you serious? Do you realize what this says about your grasp of history?

How about...

North Vietnam annexing South Vietnam?

Germany (WWII) annexing Poland, France, Belgium etc......?

The US taking Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines after the Spanish-American war?

The US taking California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Utah after the the Mexican American War?

Pretty much ANY war ever fought in Europe?

I could go through the rest of the history of the world, but that would make a long thread.

So, my assumption was correct.

You neocon nazi?s have created a two tracked foreign policy.

What Israel takes by force becomes their property, and what America conquers becomes annexed and a tax payers nightmare via a Marshall Plan (read, Germany and Japan).

Lord, you are a dim bulb, aren't you?

Going back, I've made no proclamations of US or Israel foreign policy. I have merely stated what is obvious for those of us without brain damage. That is, territory SOMETIMES, but not ALWAYS, changes hands during wars.

Every conflict is different, and in the future if the US decides it is our best interest to annex some land, say, oh, Iraq, to ensure our safety, then there is nothing wrong with that.

Your attempt at obfuscation is very weak.

The fact reamins that Israel overran the Sinai and only returned it to Egypt when it was in their own best interest to do so.

[section9]

GET A LOAD OF THIS NAZI-BOY

Ahaaaaa. That's better. You made your first mistake, as I knew you would.

Notice, everyone, that our friend from the Northeast Idaho Totenkopfverbande stopped calling Tom and I Neocon Nazis? Now he just calls us plain old Nazis (that is, when he's not wiping up the spittle off the keyboard).

Now why was this? Rather simple, really. I found it curious that my opponent from the Hitlerjugend kept using that term. In my post to Lazmataz, I had pointed out that the most prominent Neoconservatives in this country are Jewish. This movement didn't start with William Kristol or Paul Wolfowitz. Indeed, it goes all the way back to the great schism that occured in the New York Jewish literary community in the 1970s. In those days, the flagship magazine of Jewish opinion was Commentary, edited at that time by Norman Podhoretz (his son, John, had a dorm room across from mine at the University of Chicago).

Commentary started out in the forties as a magazine of liberal Jewish opinion. It reflected the Roosevelt/Socialist consensus of Reform Judaism that dominated the Jewish community in America. Eventually, Podhoretz, as well as Commentary became very left wing, especially during the Sixties. Then the Left showed its True Face and turned on the Jews after the Six Day War. As a result, Podhoretz and his small band of Jewish writers and editors began to turn away from Socialism and towards American capitalism, American patriotism, and a ringing defense of the Jewish state.

Again, you can't separate Neoconservatism from its Jewish origins, and when I called him on it, our friend the storm trooper had been smoked out. So now its just plain "Nazis". Sorry Jethro, but your pathetic attempt to backpedal out of your own Jew-baiting won't work. But there is a rich comedy of errors that follows here, so let's all go to the Party Day Rally and watch Jethro really burn a few Torah scrolls.....

ISRAEL FIRST BUTCHERS INNOCENT CIVILIANS, AND THEN DEMANDS TO BE ALLOWED TO APPOINT THE INVESTIGATORY TEAM!

There is no proof that Israel "butchered" innocent civilians. Your ridiculous assertion implies a systematic, planned massacre of innocents, not the chaotic barbarism of urban combat. The more you type, the more you reveal your own level of ignorance and the more you display your latent sense of disgust with the Jewish people. You peddle the first blood libel against Jews at the mere drop of a hat? Yet where was your outrage when Jews were being blown up in restaurants, at shopping centers, and at Seder?

(....sound of crickets...)

I thought so.

I suppose you thought that I wouldn't read the story, or didn't pay attention to the pap you posted? In point of fact, the Israelis objected to some of the members on the board because they were suspicious of their motives: it does no good for Israel for the United Nations to create a massacre out of whole cloth (which it would do if left to its own devices, and you know it) while the U.N. slaps together a report blaming the IDF for a massacre that never was.

I SAY THIS MUCH SECTION8, ISRAEL DOESN'T LACK FOR NERVE.

I would say "sticks and stones may break my bones...", but that would be a waste of time. Expecting you to actually stick to the FACTS and argue reasonably and dispassionately is akin to expecting a towel boy at a whorehouse to lead a discussion group on the Nichomachaean Ethics.

Oh, and ALL CAPS DO NOT HELP THE DEBATER IF THE CONTENT IS NOT THERE TO SUPPORT THE DEBATER'S CENTRAL THESIS!!!!!!!!!

However, I do realize that you're trying to come to terms with your inner brownshirt, so I understand.

And now, on with the fun.....a Deconstructing We Will Go!!!!

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - Israel protested Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites)'s appointment of a fact-finding team to establish what happened during its military assault on the Jenin refugee camp and demanded that a retired American general be made a full member of the panel.

Something that I hear the U.N. finally relented on. General Nash is his name, I believe. The Pallies will definitely try to pull one over on the Eurotrash who are making up this commitee. It's good that General Nash has been appointed.

Arab nations have accused Israel of a massacre of civilians in the camp, but Israel says the deaths and destruction resulted from gunbattles between its soldiers and Palestinian gunmen.

The Arab charges, especially those emanating from the Palestinian spokesmen, always should have been treated with a high bollocks quotient. It was in their interest to scream "massacre". Yet the small scale of destruction in a 100m by 100m intensive combat zone puts the lie to stories about hundreds being buried by bulldozers. Of course, I don't expect my Skinhead friend to agree with me, but there you have it.

The fighting in Jenin, which lasted eight days and ended April 11, was the fiercest the West Bank offensive Israel launched late last month after a spate of Palestinian suicide attacks.

Good On Ya', IDF! By the way, everybody's favorite impartial observer from The Independent, Robert Fisk, reported that the missile that killed an Al Aqsa brigade commander yesterday was made by none other than the boys over at Lockheed-Martin of Orlando, Florida. Good equipment leads to good results, I always say. There's another terrorist who won't be killing any Jewish children.

While the Palestinians welcomed the appointment of the three-member fact-finding team, Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer called Annan on Monday afternoon to complain that its members were not picked in coordination with Israel, as was requested.

Annan has his own agenda. It pays for him to look tough on the Israelis. It pays for him for this report to come back looking as bad as possible for the Israeli Army. Of course, Jethro thinks that the UN is the soul of impartiality here, don't you Jethro?

Earlier Monday, Annan announced that former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari will lead the team, which will also include Cornelio Sommaruga, ex-president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Sadako Ogata, the former U.N. high commissioner for refugees.

Oh Christ, this is like picking Olaf Palme and Gunther Grass to attend a Republican National Convention and give their impressions of Christian Conservatism. The only one I hold out hope for is Ogata. He's Japanese, and the Japanese government doesn't have a dog in this fight.

Annan said retired U.S. Maj. Gen. William Nash, who commanded a multinational force in Bosnia in 1996 and was the U.N. administrator in northern Kosovo in 2000, would serve as military adviser to the team. "It's important to have someone who understands how military campaigns are mounted," he said.

This team should be treated for the pack of amateurs that it is unless and until General Nash is made a full member with a right of review of the committee's report.

Former Irish assistant police commissioner Peter Fitzgerald, who commanded U.N. police in Cambodia in 1992-93 and later headed the U.N. police force in Bosnia, was named police adviser.

I don't see any problems here.

Ben-Eliezer demanded that Annan make Nash a full member of the team rather than an adviser, Israel's Defense Ministry said in a statement. He also asked that the team limit its mission to Jenin.

And I'm not surprised. Annan has a bone to pick. It's in his interest to get the UN involved in the entire West Bank operation, not just Jenin. He knows that there was no massacre, but he's hoping that he might find something else on the West Bank to hang his hat on.

But Annan, speaking at a news conference, did not rule out the possibility of visits to other West Bank cities and stressed that he expects full cooperation from Israel and the Palestinians.

As I said, without General Nash to ride herd on this posse of cat herders, this guys will find bombed out buildings painted with signs in English that say "BABY MILK FACTORY" and buy it hook, line, and sinker.

U.N. officials had no comment on Ben-Eliezer's demands.

The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously Friday to back the fact-finding mission, hours after Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres told Annan his country would welcome a U.N. representative "to clarify the facts" of what happened in the Jenin camp.

"Israel has nothing to hide regarding the operation in Jenin," Peres said, according to Israel's U.N. Mission. "Our hands are clean."

The Palestinian U.N. observer, Nasser Al-Kidwa, accused Israel of "war crimes" on Monday, saying its forces obliterated the camp, fired missiles into a crowded area, bulldozed homes with people inside and blocked access to humanitarian workers.

Asked whether the team would be looking into the possibility that war crimes were committed, Annan said, "I'm not sending a team of prosecutors or criminal investigators. ... They are going to establish the facts."

Ahtisaari, who was the Finnish president from 1994-2000, said he hopes the team will arrive in Jenin before the end of the week.

In the week since the Jenin camp began reopening to the outside world, Palestinian claims of a massacre of civilians have gone unsubstantiated, although doctors say women, children, the elderly and other noncombatants are included among dead and injured. About four dozen bodies have been recovered in the camp, and Palestinians — who had said the toll would run into the hundreds — insist the enormous piles of debris could yield many more corpses.

It's not often I get to see a poster destroy his own argument with his own article. But you did it here. No massacre took place, there was no butchery, and Jenin was not destroyed.

It was all a damnable lie, and you're peddling it.

Concerns about its actions in the camp have prompted some of the harshest international denunciations of Israel in nearly 19 months of conflict.

Denunciations from the usual gang of thugs, goons, gangsters, Presidents-for-Life, and "Judenraus" leftists should be taken with a grain of salt.

Much like your posts, I might add.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[TomB]

Please read and learn....

That's it?! That's all you can come up with?

Out of all the points I made, you ignored all of them except for this one. As to that (weak) point, do you think the Mexicans would have signed the treaty if we hadn't been in Mexico City and blockading the country? Of course not. We CHOSE to end the war as such to reduce the chances of further hostilities. However, there's no doubt we would have retained the present territories with or without the exchange of money.

Anyway I eagerly await your further discussion of my points made in post 211.

I also eagerly await any more evidence of a massacre, and since the Palestinians are already there, you would think they could come up with some, ANY?, evidence.

And why is there so little damage shown in the aerial pictures?

[TomB]

Of course, Jethro thinks that the UN is the soul of impartiality here, don't you Jethro?

Chris, have you noticed how our friend is becoming quite the globalist? First, he quotes with gusto and relish the European (socialist) Press, delighting in every word. He continually frets over what the rest of the world thinks of the situation. And then he puts his hopes and trust in the UN, of all places!?

It seems Jethro is becoming quite the shill for the NWO.

What would Pat say?

[TomB]

Sorry Section8.

OUCH!!!!!

That'll leave a mark.

I can't believe it took you this long to come up with that one, Jethro.

Another couple weeks and we might be able to call your humor "juvenile".