Posted on 03/10/2002 11:53:20 AM PST by JediGirl
Common Creationist ArgumentsMorality |
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The subject of religious morality is a thorny one. Believers of Judaism, Christianity or Islam bristle at any suggestion that their religions may justify or encourage violence, yet they all must deal with histories of incredible violence, many of which are enshrined in their own holy books. Worse yet, they actually have the gall to vilify atheism, secularism, and humanism as the source of immorality!
My position on the morality of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is simple: most modern followers are somewhat moderate, and I don't have any problem with them. They balance their ideologies against the values of secular humanism, and they come up with a compromise that, I suspect, works very well for them. Moreover, most of them are not even aware of the sheer extent of the violence and hatred in the Old Testament (see my Reference page on Old Testament violence, and you may be surprised).
However, the so-called "far-right" fundamentalists are a different breed; they have generally studied the Old Testament, and they don't see anything wrong with it. They will look you straight in the eye and insist that there was nothing wrong with butchering the women and children and little babies of Jericho, or that it was "just" and "righteous" to murder the babies of Egypt for the sins of their fathers!
To forgive or defend such atrocities is to proclaim that one's ideology is more "real" and more important than human life itself, and therein lies the seeds of violent fanaticism. When faced with such delusional zealotry, most people simply try to walk away, under the assumption that it is best to let sleeping dogs lie. Most people let them spout their hatred towards atheists, humanists, "pagans", heretics, and everyone else who doesn't share their ideology, because most people don't want to get into an argument about religion.
However, I am not "most people". I believe that if a zealot wants to start an argument about the "immorality" of secularism, he should expect criticism of his own belief system in return. I believe that zealots should not be buoyed by the apparent reluctance of others to confront them directly. I believe that religious beliefs are not a sacred shield against criticism, and that if someone defends atrocities, they should be held accountable for that, just as Nazi sympathizers and apologists are vilified in society today. And so, in addition to my Biblical Morality pages, I present the following arguments.
Please note that when I say "God" in the following arguments, I'm referring specifically to God as envisioned by the fundamentalists, and as described in the Old Testament. Their God is hopefully not the same as your God, if you have one.
"How can you defend the morality of evolution theory? Could anything be more ruthless than "survival of the fittest"?
Evolution theory identifies natural selection as an existing mechanism in nature. It did not invent it. It does not praise it. It does not pass any kind of moral judgement upon it. Evolution theory only describes it. Don't shoot the messenger.
"How can you defend secularism, with its drug abuse, divorce rate, pornography, and materialism?
Don't be ridiculous. Secularism has nothing to do with drug abuse or divorce rates. In fact, the largest opium producer in the world is the Taliban religious theocracy in Afghanistan, and in the 18th century, it was evangelical Britain. Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever that divorce rates are higher among atheists than they are among Christians, and in fact, the only attempt to produce statistical evidence for such a difference (a Barna Research study) backfired on its Christian backers: it found that Christians were more likely to divorce than atheists!
As for pornography and materialism, you have yet to produce evidence that either is bad. Pornography is merely the open expression of human sexuality, and while it may offend your prudish Victorian sensibilities, it is a victimless "crime" and there is nothing immoral about it. Violent pornography or child pornography is immoral, but it is the violence and statutory rape that makes it immoral, not the fact that it is pornography. Statutory rape is immoral regardless of whether it is filmed, and excessive violence in films is immoral regardless of whether sex is involved. As for materialism, it is merely the notion that the material world is all that exists; it is the underlying philosophy of science, and it is hardly immoral. You are obviously confusing it with greed, and quite frankly, given the history of church greed (particularly in the Catholic church, not to mention modern television evangelists), you throw stones from a glass house.
In short, there is no evidence whatsoever for a difference in ethical behaviour between atheists and Christians, despite the incredible volume of slanderous bigoted remarks made about atheists by Christian preachers across the world every Sunday. Your religion does not make you better than me. Get over it.
"Secularism condones hedonism: if it feels good, do it. Where's the moral self-restraint?"
Strawman. It's not "if it feels good, do it". It's "if it feels good and you're not hurting anyone, feel free to do it". And while that may offend your masochistic values of self-denial, it is not immoral. Self-restraint is admirable if it is employed toward some useful goal, such as not over-eating in order to preserve one's health or not succumbing to anger in a difficult situation. However, pointless self-restraint is simply stupid, and avoiding pleasure simply for the sake of self-denial is definitely pointless.
In fact, the world could use a little more hedonism and a little less ideology. When Hitler seized power and began to exterminate Jews, did he derive any physical pleasure from it? No, he was fighting for a twisted ideology. When terrorists plant car bombs, do they derive any physical pleasure from it? No, they are fighting for an ideology. Does anyone derive any physical pleasure from war? No, the soldiers fight and kill for ideologies and nation-states, and the politicians order them to do it for the same reasons, or in some cases, out of lust for power.
Even rape is not motivated by pleasure. More than half of all sexual assaults do not even involve a complete act of copulation. Many rapists can't do it at all; they are impotent, or they have reduced sexual function. Furthermore, sex with a struggling victim can't possibly provide the same kind of physical pleasure as sex with a willing partner. Rapists get off not on physical pleasure, but on their ability to dominate and humiliate their victims. They get off on their victims' pain and anguish, and physical pleasure quite frankly has little or nothing to do with it.
Many other social problems such as drug abuse and adultery and drug abuse are also not motivated by physical pleasure. People become drug abusers because of poor self-esteem and poor judgement, not physical pleasure. Anyone with even the most vague knowledge of drugs will know that while they may provide a short-term "hit", they eventually burn out the pleasure centres in your brain, thus robbing you of all life's physical pleasures. In the long term, drugs reduce physical pleasure. And what of adultery? Adultery is motivated by the excitement of its illicit nature and perhaps by dissatisfaction with one's marriage. However, to put it bluntly, another woman's vagina will not feel a whole lot different than your wife's vagina. To put it even more bluntly, the vagina of the most beautiful woman in the world won't feel any better than the vagina of an unattractive woman. Men stray for myriad psychological reasons, none of which have anything to do with physical pleasure. In the end, adultery is a relationship problem, not a hedonist problem.
You may find that my defense of hedonism offends your sensibilities. If so, ask yourself whether the world would be a more peaceful and harmonious place if people simply pursued their own physical pleasure instead of fighting over nation-states and ideologies. Whether it be good food, a good massage, or good sex, physical pleasure in and of itself harms no one. However, its demonization by religious zealots has harmed a lot of people.
"You're being unfair to the Bible. You mention all of the worst parts, but what about the good parts?" [This is usually followed by a list of nice quotes from the Bible, such as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or "Love Thy Neighbour"]"
You can't cancel out evil words or deeds by saying something nice. If your neighbour beats his wife but tells you that he abhors violence, would you believe him? Of course not! So if God murders and tortures millions of people but tells you that he's a "God of Love", why do you believe him? Al Capone once said that "you can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word." He was talking about his own ruthless approach to life, but he could just as easily have been talking about the Old Testament God.
Yes, God has a few kind words in the Bible. However, like Al Capone, he bundles every kind word with threats of violence, and then he ruthlessly demonstrates his capacity for violence, so that you will take those threats seriously. From his genocidal bloodlust in the Great Flood to his massacres at Sodom and Gomorrah, his infanticide in Egypt, his ethnic cleansing of Canaan, and his violent persecution of heretics, God demonstrated stunning cruelty and ruthlessness all throughout the Old Testament. And with his promise to torture unbelievers for all eternity, he attempts to enslave us through fear of even greater horrors. You can't make up for that kind of evil by simply saying a few nice things.
"You're wrong about the Bible. In [insert passage name here], it says quite clearly that [God never changes, God is perfect, God is just, God is merciful, whatever]. So much for your claim that [God changes, God is not perfect, God is unjust, God is unmerciful, whatever]"
Adolf Hitler claimed that he was perfect too. Get it? It doesn't matter whether God describes himself as perfect! What matters are his actions, and his actions speak for themselves. He commits all sorts of atrocities that are classified as acts of evil when committed by a human. Unlike moral relativists like you, I insist that the definition of evil is absolute. Evil is evil, regardless of who does it. Adolf was evil for his brutality, and God is evil for his brutality. God punishes children for the sins of their fathers. He murders indiscriminately: women, children, babies in their cribs. And after all of that, Jesus claims that he is a God of "love". In other words, God can change (or at least, claim to), he is imperfect, he is unjust, and he is unmerciful. The fact that his propaganda denies it proves nothing.
"God is all knowing and all powerful. We cannot judge God."
Power = righteousness? Wrong. The growth of the secular humanist democratic state is the direct result of people finally realizing that power does not confer unquestioned moral authority. That's why we replaced "rulers" with "public servants".
Evil is evil, no matter who does it. Kings, queens, emperors, and gods must observe the same ethics as everyone else, so if we can judge Adolf Hitler for mass murder, we can judge God for the same thing.
"The massacres of the Old Testament were righteous because God rewarded his innocent victims (such as children and babies) with an eternity of bliss. Only the truly guilty were truly punished, and they only got what they deserved."
Two-part rebuttal:
#1: So massacres are OK because innocent victims go to Heaven, eh? Thank you for demonstrating so clearly that I am 100% correct. Your religious beliefs do help you rationalize atrocities such as baby-killing! I have always maintained that the chief problem with Judaism and its offshoots is that it contains justifications for murder, warfare, and crimes against humanity, and you have just proven me right.
#2: So sinners get what they deserve in Hell, eh? How can anyone possibly deserve an eternity of torture? Even if you tortured ten people to death, their combined suffering would be a drop in the ocean compared to an eternity in Hell. And what of people who simply worship the wrong gods? Do they "deserve" an etenity of torture too? Is this God's "perfect justice"? If our justice systems were as harsh as God's "perfect justice", spitting on the sidewalk would be a death penalty offense.
"What gives us the right to judge anyone, much less God? Only a higher power has the right to pass judgement."
One word: Why?
Why does "higher power" confer the right to judge? Why should the powerful be exempt from judgement? Why can't the weak judge the strong?
I am nauseated by the common belief that judgement is based on a hierarchy of power rather than a rational, objective, analytical process. I am sickened by the common belief that standards of right and wrong should be unilaterally chosen by the strong and then imposed upon the weak through force, rather than being decided by the weak themselves, through reason, sympathy for others, and a genuine desire to make the world a happier place.
Throughout history, it has always been the weak who suffer from evil, whether it be Hitler's evil, Stalin's evil, Torquemada's evil, Columbus' evil, or God's evil. Who, then, is best qualified to judge what is and isn't evil, if not the weak? Who but the victim has the "right" to judge?
The authoritarian mindset betrayed by your argument is nothing more than medievalism, and it has no place in the modern era. Didn't you ever notice that a criminal suspect is judged by twelve of his peers? Not by a king, not by a bishop, and not by a pope, but by his own peers. Didn't you ever think to ask why?
"Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Doesn't this prove that God truly loves us? He sent his own son to die for us! The only way to Heaven is through the Salvation of Jesus Christ. His perfect love ... [yadda yadda yadda]"
Tell me something about this "Salvation" of yours. Salvation implies a threat, correct? You must be saved from something. So who or what are we supposedly being saved from? God himself. What's the danger from which we need salvation? An eternity of agonizing torture, courtesy of a "loving" God. Call it God, call it Jesus, call it the Holy Trinity or the Heavenly Host, but whatever the name, the result is the same: he's supposedly "saving" us from himself.
Quite frankly, salvation doesn't mean a whole lot when the person "saving" you is the same person who's threatening you! The notion of Christian salvation is quite frankly the most incredibly audacious example of spin-doctoring in human history. If a mugger holds a gun to your head and says that out of his love for you, he will "save" you from his own violence as long as you give him your money, would you think him wondrously merciful? Would you be glad you ran into him? Or would you think that he's a deranged, violent sociopath?
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Patience. You'll get "the point" soon enough.
Honestly, though, I already know how Jedigirl and others non-brimstoners feel about your threats.
I'm actually more interested in how other christians feel about your threat: Are Gargantua's threats of "Do it or fry!" the be-all end-all of arguments on christian morality, as he seems to think? Is Hellfire the end of all your arguments about why one should be a christian? Are threats and intimidation all your Messiah offers? Are they ANY of it? What do YOU think of people like Gargy here? Is their Christianity truth?
That depends on your notion of "distance." Take the set of natural numbers (or real numbers, if you prefer) and append a "positive infinity" point to it. Extend the Euclidean metric on your original set by allowing "infinity" to be a possible distance. It's no longer a proper metric, but something has to give when you work with infinity. Now we obtain the following: the distance from any natural (real) number to positive infinity is...drumroll, please!...INFINITY! (thankyouverymuch).
And thus infinity is the same (infinite) distance from every natural (real) number. No number is any closer to infinity than another. Interesting theological implications, perhaps...
Of course, you may redefine your metric so as to realize your desire to make 1,000,000 be closer to infinity than 1,000. However, you then lose the truth that the distance from 1 to 2 is the same as the distance from 101 to 102. Is it worth it?
Granted, from 1,000's point of view, 1,000,000 would appear to be closer to infinity, given that 1,000,000 is between 1,000 and infinity. But how much closer? You can't nail down a translation-invariant notion of distance that will answer this. For this reason I would respectfully suggest that "closer" is an ill-advised choice of word.
Don't you guys still believe in mathematics? If not, what do you use these days?
And yes, I do use mathematics, but my formal schooling only extends to college algebra; everything else I pick up pretty much from conversations like this one {;^)>
What Happened When Stalin Read Darwin?
Russian dictator and revolutionist, Joseph Stalin (1879-1953), is regarded as one of the most notable men in Russian history. He was also one of the most influential in world affairs in the periods immediately before and after the Second World War.
But early in his life Stalin experienced a dramatic change of career. While studying at the Tiflis Theological Seminary, he began to read the works of Charles Darwin. He developed a critical mind and revolutionary bent. One of his friends later said in a book - which was published in Moscow while Stalin was still in power - that when Stalin began to read Darwin he became an atheist. At the age of 19, in 1898, Stalin was expelled from the theological seminary because of his revolutionary connections.
Ain't Google wonderful?
Creation Magazine. Now that's an unbiased source. That's like going to the DU to read about conservative ethics. Yeah right.
These are biblical promises made by God. Let them who have ears hear.
Are you sure you can make this notion precise?
You might start by specifying the space you wish to use. I doubt you are thinking of the set of ordinals including omega, since the natural topology would be the discrete topology. So shall we agree that we are using the set of reals with an appended positive infinity?
Next, we need to specify a topology. Shall we agree that it is to be the "order" topology for our space? That is, the topology is the set of arbitrary unions of finite intersections of intervals of the form (a, b), where a and b are any two points in the space.
But now for your notion of closeness. Compactness does not help you here. Note that closed intervals are not the only compact sets in this topological space. There are infinitely many compact sets in this topological space that contain the points 1000 and infinity but do not contain 1,000,000. There are also infinitely many compact sets that contain 1,000,000 and infinity but not 1000.
Open neighborhoods do no better. We can observe the same thing for open sets as for compact sets.
Your notion of "closeness" seems to be based not on topology at all, but on intervals, i. e., order. Since 1000 < 1,000,000 < infinity, there are intervals containing 1,000,000 and infinity that exclude 1000 but not any that contain 1000 and infinity that exclude 1,000,000.
In this sense we can say that A is "closer" to C than B is to C. But we can't say how much closer it is. This is a weaker notion of "closeness" than we might like.
Notice what would happen if we were starting with the complex numbers rather than the real numbers. The Euclidean metric gives us a precise notion of "closeness"—until we append an infinity point. Then, as with the real numbers, we find that there is no translation-invariant metric that can be defined. However, there is no natural order on the complex numbers either. Then on what basis would we say that one complex number was "closer" to infinity than another?
BTW, it's nice to think about real mathematics again...thanks for the reply.
I give about as much weight to Stalin's statements as I do Jeffrey Dahmer's. Anyone who pushes responsibility for their actions away from themselves to a philosophy is copping out. I think the same case could be said for people who try use the same arguments to try to explain why philosphy X is better than Y because X has killed less people. This includes the author of this thread. Crazy people are found on both sides of the aisle, and trying to say that one side is crazier than the other is devolving the argument to an ad hominiem attack.
ThinkPlease: I give about as much weight to Stalin's statements as I do Jeffrey Dahmer's. Anyone who pushes responsibility for their actions away from themselves to a philosophy is copping out. I think the same case could be said for people who try use the same arguments to try to explain why philosphy X is better than Y because X has killed less people. This includes the author of this thread. Crazy people are found on both sides of the aisle, and trying to say that one side is crazier than the other is devolving the argument to an ad hominiem attack.
Oh, please, spare us the sophistry. Here's my original post. I stand by the facts cited and that ideas have consequences.
Godless Communism was responsible for upwards of 100 million deaths in the 20th Century, most of which were committed by the regimes upon subject populations. And how many fundamentalist Christian terrorist groups are you aware of? . . . "Secular Humanist" Darwinism was embraced by both Hitler and Stalin.
Perhaps I get too touchy when dealing with you, Phaedrus. Too often your comments are very blunt, and perhaps that rubs me the wrong way.
While I don't dispute that Stalin killed 100 million people, I do dispute that the very Godlessness of communism, or Darwinism was a major contributing factor in it.
Face it, when crazy people will do crazy things with any idea, look at Torquemada, or Bin Laden, or Richard the Lion Hearted or those idiots in Africa right now, or any other figure who uses religion to bludgeon people to death because they didn't worship the same religion they did. If you want to include Stalin et al, whatever, but others shouldn't get the idea that religions aren't immune to this kind of insanity either.
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