Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Do you honestly think that we can understand that world from our present place in history?
Jerry, unless you intend to burn us all at the stake - or have our heads chopped off - you cannot reconcile those two statements.
The insinuation then and now is that God makes them so that they cannot come. The do not come because they do not want to come. I will, of course explain after you answer.
Would you say that God is the creator of all?
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that only the elect can come to God?
Do you mean they choose not to come? How can that be?
The insinuation is that God makes them so they cannot come or that they do not want to come. Either way they cannot do anything about it.
You don't want us to believe that's what Calvinism says, but that's exactly what it says.
How can it be that my unsaved family has heard of hell,has heard the gospel and chooses not to "come"
Ummm!, Ward, not that I cannot respond, I'd like to see your answer to this: Did God make anybody so that they did not want to come?
Would you say that God is the creator of all?
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that only the elect can come to God?
Calvinists assume Wesley denied predestination, but what he said was, "God foreknew those in every nation who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. . . . All time, or rather all eternity . . . being present to Him at once, he does not know one thing before another, or one thing after another, but sees all things in one point of view, from everlasting to everlasting. . . . But observe: we must not think they ARE because he KNOWS them. NO; he knows them because they are. . . . What he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in no wise caused by his knowledge. . . As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree."
Both Calvin and Wesley believed God gave man the ability to come to Him, Calvin believed man could not resist the call of God, Wesley believed he could. But even in that belief Wesley acknowledged it was not something inherently good in man that allowed him to choose, but an ability given by God.
When we refer to the "foundations of the world" I think we get tripped up because we put the things of God into a time perspective that man can understand. In other words when we say from before the beginning of time, we put God in one time frame. But the reality is that God existed at the end of the time frame and all along the line.
Wesley put it this way, "Speaking after the manner of men. Strictly speaking, there is no foreknowledge, no more than afterknowledge, with God: but all things are known to him as present from eternity to eternity."
God has always known who would come to Him, but He gave them the choice, the free-will to do so. Our finite understanding of an infinite God doesn't comprehend how He could have always known we would come to Him and still allow us to choose Him.
But those are man's limitations, not God's.
There's the argument. Would you say he did?
I would say no, He did not. But He gave them the choice to say no.
(I'm not bailing on you here, and there's more to that, but I've got to sign off for tonite)
Interesting quote Ward..My church has no doctrine on foreknowledge. Most of the Pastors and teachers believe that God does NOT foreknow future events. They believe and teach that God chooses not to know .
The reason for this is well stated by my Pastor..absolute foreknowledge is predestination..
If God foreknew who would come and based election of the foreknowledge , His failure to provide the extra grace or circumstances that "all" could come in fact predestined them to hell.
While your motives are commendable, I have an honest question.
How can we worship the same God if we don't agree on who He is.
For there is a critical difference between a God who
a) allows children to be born whom He has willed to a life without His Grace and an afterlife of Hell as their punishmet for His choice, or
b) allows each child to be born in the hope that they will accept His offer of grace to all men.
If He truly is the former, then He is an utterly different being than the God non-Calvinists love and worship. I personally consider the attributes given Him by Calvinists to be an insult to Him.
Did God create them knowing that they would not come and yet, still created them anyway?
The only thing that has been determined is God's method for saving mankind. Each individual must choose who they will serve.
Well, start by naming 1!
Actually many of us would say that it is an insult to God to deny Him the sovereign rights over HIS creations..and instead to stand helplessly by while His sinful creation makes their choice.
Man was created not because God was lonely and needed company we were created for His glory.
Could you tell me how it is fine that man can decide to "accept" Christ or to "deny "Christ..but only a powerles god is acceptable to you?
Did not God choose Noah?,Did not God choose Abraham? Did not God choose Issac over Ishmael? Did not God choose Jacob over Essau? Did not God choose to pass over the eldest and select Juda for the spiritual blessing? Did not God choose to remove the tribe of Dan and replace it? Did not God choose to harden the heart of Pharaoh? Did not God choose the death of the soldiers of Egypt? Did not God choose the death of the male infants in Egypt?
Did not God choose the method of salvation?Did not God choose Israel? Did God not choose Mary ?
At what point did God give up His sovereignity?
Woody: "Well, start by naming 1!"
Punishing people for your decisions would be a start.
Considering your lack of mercy and other fruits of the Spirit, I would not expect you to see the insult. You apparently believe that it is worthy of glory to choose who will be blessed and condemn all others.
So, God punishing people for what, deciding not to serve him, is an insult to God? You really need to explain better I think.
We are not denying God his sovereign rights over HIS creations and claiming He is helpless to stop His creaton from sinning. Instead, we fully accept His rights and omnipotence, and love Him more because, even with His abilities, He chooses not to exercise them so that we may come to Him out of Love.
As for God's choices to spare Noah and harden Pharaoh's heart, those are good questions. It is obvious He did, if the Bible stories are to be taken as literal truth. Those incidents are my biggest obstacle to continuing in my previous convictions. If He truly punished those to whom He gave no choice, I never knew, thus never loved Him.
I am sure He is reassured by that ..it is very nice of all of you to grant Him that power :>))
As for God's choices to spare Noah and harden Pharaoh's heart, those are good questions. It is obvious He did, if the Bible stories are to be taken as literal truth. Those incidents are my biggest obstacle to continuing in my previous convictions. If He truly punished those to whom He gave no choice, I never knew, thus never loved Him.
Actually we loved Him because He loved us first( 1 John 4:19).Can you only love God if He lets you be God? Can you not love Him because He loved you?
Woody responds: "So, God punishing people for what, deciding not to serve him, is an insult to God? You really need to explain better I think."
Woody, forgive me for overestimating my audience's power of comprehension.
Taken in context with my posts to which you replied, the "your" was clearly referring to God. But if I must spell it out for you, I meant (God's) punishing people for (God's own) decisions.
"Punishing people for (I assume you refer to "the people's own" rather than "God's" here) deciding not to serve him" is a twisting of my words. Whether it was done in malice or ignorance, I will consider a question to be answered by the style of your past and future posts.
Now, wouold you like to answer the post, or play another game of avioding the issue?
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