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To: Ward Smythe
How does that square with your answer to question #2? If the non-elect can come to God, does he change his mind in midstream and make them elect?

The insinuation then and now is that God makes them so that they cannot come. The do not come because they do not want to come. I will, of course explain after you answer.

Would you say that God is the creator of all?
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world?
Would you say that only the elect can come to God?

82 posted on 02/26/2002 4:22:30 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
The insinuation then and now is that God makes them so that they cannot come. They do not come because they do not want to come.

Do you mean they choose not to come? How can that be?

The insinuation is that God makes them so they cannot come or that they do not want to come. Either way they cannot do anything about it.

You don't want us to believe that's what Calvinism says, but that's exactly what it says.

83 posted on 02/26/2002 4:31:18 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: CCWoody
The reality is Woody, as you know, that I would answer the questions essentially the same, because Wesley and Calvin were closer in thought that many realize.

Calvinists assume Wesley denied predestination, but what he said was, "God foreknew those in every nation who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. . . . All time, or rather all eternity . . . being present to Him at once, he does not know one thing before another, or one thing after another, but sees all things in one point of view, from everlasting to everlasting. . . . But observe: we must not think they ARE because he KNOWS them. NO; he knows them because they are. . . . What he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in no wise caused by his knowledge. . . As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree."

Both Calvin and Wesley believed God gave man the ability to come to Him, Calvin believed man could not resist the call of God, Wesley believed he could. But even in that belief Wesley acknowledged it was not something inherently good in man that allowed him to choose, but an ability given by God.

When we refer to the "foundations of the world" I think we get tripped up because we put the things of God into a time perspective that man can understand. In other words when we say from before the beginning of time, we put God in one time frame. But the reality is that God existed at the end of the time frame and all along the line.

Wesley put it this way, "Speaking after the manner of men. Strictly speaking, there is no foreknowledge, no more than afterknowledge, with God: but all things are known to him as present from eternity to eternity."

God has always known who would come to Him, but He gave them the choice, the free-will to do so. Our finite understanding of an infinite God doesn't comprehend how He could have always known we would come to Him and still allow us to choose Him.

But those are man's limitations, not God's.

86 posted on 02/26/2002 5:15:12 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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