Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why I Believe Predestination
myself | 2/18/01 | myself

Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas

Why I Believe Predestination

Okay, I did not used to believe predestination. I used to believe free will and did not know any better. When I first heard of predestination, I was horrified and actually angry. It seemed like it made God into some horrible monster. After a lot of study though, I had to change my mind and I now embrace predestination, often resulting in having to defend it to shocked Christian friends. Hopefully, this defense will help others understand my thinking.

First, if free will is accurate, why hasn’t an Almighty God been able to convince everyone to come and have eternal life if he wants everyone to be saved? Doesn’t Scripture say God’s will is accomplished? I think it does. If I am correct on this, predestination is the only logical position because Arminians would make God into a liar when he says he wants to save "all," yet he is too weak to do so (in the free will view of things). Let’s look at some examples of what the Bible says about God’s power:

Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in heaven; he does whatever He pleases.

Rom 9:19

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

**Romans 9 is a big verse and we will be coming back to this later....

Luke 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

And God did it only because "it seemed good in [His] sight." The fact that God can reveal and hide the truth from people indicates his sovereignty to me and indicates that he has ultimate dominion over what occurs and his will is what gets done.

Ps 135:5-6

5 For I know that the LORD is great, and our Lord is above all gods.

6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.

Exod 7:3

3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

It should be noted here that God says He will harden Pharaoh’s heart himself! Scripture also says later simply that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, however obviously it was because of God as the LORD has said here. I think that is interesting because in my view, it shows that if one did not read the verse above first, they would think Pharaoh just simply hardened his heart by himself. I think we have similar thinking in the New Testament where people assume we choose God by ourselves since that is what it looks like when you read it in a non-close manner and don’t look at the big picture of things. I know I made that mistake.

 

1 Sam 2:6-9

6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and brings up.

7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and lifts up.

8 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the beggar from the ash heap, to set them among princes and make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and He has set the world upon them.

9 He will guard the feet of His saints, but the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail.

So here it says that God gives and takes life, changes the earthly welfare of people, even puts people into governmental power! Yes, God is powerful and I don’t see any hint of him not being able to do whatever he pleases. Remember above where it said almost exactly "he does whatever he pleases." God gets his will accomplished and it covers EVERYTHING.

Acts 4:27-28

27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together

28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

Dan 4:35

35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; he does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

God does his will in heaven and earth! NOBODY can restrain his hand. This is a pretty powerful passage and a humbling one....

Jer 32:27

27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Gen 18:14

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

God himself says that there is NOTHING too hard for him. Now, how can this be if there is free will, God wants all to be saved, yet not everyone is? I think the solution is then that not everyone was meant to be and the fact man is sinful makes that case stronger. I will talk about that later.

 

Job 42:2

2 "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

NO purpose of God’s can be kept from being realized. When God wants to do something, it gets done!

Philippians 2:13 tells us: "It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

God works in us to fulfill his will! Ultimately, it is his will that is accomplished!

I think the above Scriptures are plenty to demonstrate the power of God. God is King and when he wills something, it will be accomplished. There is a reason why the NT always talks about Christ purchasing salvation or his death being a ransom and I haven’t at least yet found something where anyone writes saying "and the cross made it possible that I could have life and I chose him."......I think God willed something specific behind the death of Christ. If there was free will instead of predestination, God’s will was not accomplished to save everyone. Therefore, I think God had to will to save only a lot of people, not everyone. I believe he had to have predestined certain people to be saved or the Cross would well, end up being a failure since not everyone has come like God intended (if free will would be right). Next, I will talk about the sinful nature of man and ask how people can come to Christ when they hate him. I will conclude this little discussion with some Scriptural support for predestination. So.....you see I am first coming here trying to address the nature of God and then the nature of man which raises questions as to how we can even have free will....and then directly address predestination specifically. The issues of God’s sovereignty and the nature of people is ultimately what underlies predestination so I am addressing them first and tying them to predestination.

What is the nature of man? Well, people DID have free will at one time. We had a completely free will at the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. However, after that, the Bible says our will is enslaved. Once we believe in Christ, we no longer are enslaved to sin, though we still struggle with it. But, natural man (unsaved people) IS enslaved to sin and can’t know God. Let’s look at Scripture on this topic.

1 Cor 1:18-24

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Now, in this passage, it says that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (the unsaved). In the last verse, it speaks of those who God has "called" as not being caught up in the foolishness and instead coming to God and recognizing the Gospel. So here we see the cross is not a message the world loves and people hate it unless God "calls" them....in this passage calling refers to God’s action of bringing someone to himself and since he does not do this with everyone, predestination is implied I think.

1 Cor 2:11-14
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man WITHOUT the Spirit DOES NOT ACCEPT the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

In this verse, we see a person without the Spirit does not accept and can’t understand God’s truth of the Gospel. Thus, the Spirit has to do its work to make someone recognize this truth and he works on only some people and logic would dictate I think that these people would be the predestined ones since I don’t know what alternative solution there can be.

Rom 6:20-23
20 When you were SLAVES to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in DEATH!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You see here, when one is not saved, they are slaves to sin! Their enslavement results in death, not just physical, but spiritual. Remember the Garden of Eden when God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit? Well, they did not die, did they? Actually.....they did not die physically, BUT in reality, they did die spiritually. They became estranged from God after the Fall and so did all of the human race. We all inherited Adam’s sin.

Col 2:13-14

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man resurrect himself? It is only by the grace of God and His working in us that we can and we can’t even initiate it since we are dead. When we are saved, he brings us back to life.

Gal 5:17

17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

The fleshly sinful nature is CONTARY to the spirit. They are at war, not at harmony. How is it possible for a dead, enslaved man to come to faith unless the Spirit makes the first move and actually changes him (converts him) FIRST before the person makes a profession of faith himself? Since God has not sent the Spirit to convert everyone, everyone was not intended to be saved and have a new nature placed in them.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The mind of the unsaved is against God and can’t even be subject to God’s law. He can’t know God by his own action. God again must do something to ensure his salvation if he wants him saved.

Now, we have seen God is sovereign and all-powerful. We have seen he does what he wishes and accomplishes his will. We have seen all people are infected with the sin of Adam and Eve and how we hate God and can’t even know him in our state of being when we are not saved. Since this is the case, God has chosen to do something about it since well, obviously some are saved! If he did not, nobody would be saved since our nature is to hate God. God could not have even just made salvation possible for all on the Cross since nobody would come due to our natures. Therefore, I now turn to evidence that directly addresses predestination in Scripture. I believe this is what God did to solve the problem of our depravity and his desire to save people on the cross. I believe the Cross was meant to save a group of people, not just be there for everyone in a possibility, for Scripture refers to the Cross as accomplishing something all the time. Of course, predestination does not mean we aren’t to evangelize, for the Gospel is how God works in people’s hearts to save those he wants to save, the predestined.

Where do I get the idea God has people selected? Well, here are some examples:

John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"

This is Jesus saying that every single person God wants and draws to Christ WILL come to Him and accept Christ. God gives people to Christ and that is significant because it shows not everyone has been selected by God to be given to Christ or we would all be saved since it says "all....the father gives me shall come...." It also shows that God does take a very active role in our salvation...in fact, the lead role by taking charge and giving us to Christ.

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That verse is a parallelism, showing that the ones that believe Jesus is the Son of God are also the ones that God GIVES Jesus. God has given a people to Christ to be his followers.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse is big and goes back to the sinful nature of man also. NOBODY can come to Christ (Jesus is speaking here, by the way) unless the Father draws him! We are filthy sinners in our natural state and can’t come and that is why this is so. Jesus makes it clear here GOD DRAWS US...we don’t just come and get saved. It is God’s will exercised which results in our salvation. Everyone the father gives Christ will come; THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. I think that is a really important point here..... Who gets drawn? Well, I would argue a predestined people. Otherwise, God is just drawing people without a set purpose, which is not what he does. He always has a systematic purpose for things and the Cross itself was a systematic thing. It was all planned out. Scripture shows that in passages I already showed earlier.

Rev 17:8

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Names are put in the book of life from the beginning of time, "the foundation of the world." This supports predestination because God wrote names of some people and ignored the names of others. Now, some say, "God predestined based on the foreknowledge of God." While I don’t argue with this (one passage even says, "predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God" in the NT), the interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not say we are predestined because God foresaw that we would accept him (this is what most think of when they see "foreknowledge"). 1 Pet 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." Now, the verse I just quoted is what I am talking about. Nobody can truly bring out of this a view that God predestined as a result of our coming to him. First, you can’t take that from the text since that is taking a lot of liberty with a very narrow phrase "elect according to the foreknowledge". Second, left to free will, we would all reject God (remember above where we are all enslaved to sin in our natural state). Third, foreknowledge, by necessity, IMPLIES GOD’S ORDAINING OF ACTIONS AND EVENTS. After all, for one thing, unless God ordained who would be saved, he would not be able to see who would come to him anyway since otherwise there would be no definite events and well, also nobody would come due to their rebellious nature. He would only have chaos and nothing to see.

Let me point out a non-Calvinist Biblical dictionary section on 1 Peter 1:2:

FOREKNOW; FOREKNOWLEDGE

"In this verse the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in <1 Pet 1:20>. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world. The Greek verb proegnosmenou, meaning literally, "foreknown" (as in the Revised Version (British and American)) is translated "foreordained" in the King James Version. It is evidently God's foreordination of Jesus as Saviour which Peter has in mind. Also in <1 Pet 1:2> those to whom the apostle is writing are characterized as "elect according to the foreknowledge (prognosis) of God," where the election is based on the "foreknowledge." By the prognosis or foreknowledge, however, far more is meant than prescience. It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure. If it meant simply prevision of faith or love or any quality in the objects of the election, Peter would not only flatly contradict Paul <Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3-4; 2 Tim 1:9>; but also such a rendering would conflict with the context of this passage, because the objects of election are chosen "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of .... Christ," so that their new obedience and relation to Christ are determined by their election by God, which election springs from a "foreknowledge" which therefore cannot mean a mere prescience."

(from International Standard Bible Encylopaedia)

Thus, this really supports my position, (even the non-Calvinist Bible Dictionary admits foreknowledge needs God’s ordaining of something to go along with it anyway) that God sent Christ to die for specific people and the Holy Spirit converts those predestined when they hear the Gospel.

John 15:16

16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Acts 13:48

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been APPOINTED to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29, 30, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified."

Rom 9:8-26

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."

26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' there they shall be called sons of the living God."

Okay, here it speaks of predestination (election) in the parenthesis for those not yet even born! Paul goes on to say here that there is no unrighteousness with God for selecting one person over another for salvation and goes on to quote the OT where God said he would have mercy on whom he would have mercy and harden whom he will. Then Paul knows someone will cry out and say, "How can God condemn me when it is his will that has damned me!?" Well, Paul comes back and asks how one can talk back to God when the Potter made us, the clay to fulfill his purposes. He goes on to say God created vessels (people) for honor and dishonor.

Ephesians 1:5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will"

11: "In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."

This verse speaks of remembering our election (predestination). The Bible doesn’t view it as a horrid and cruel thing of God. The writers recognized it as a wonderful thing and something that we, as Christians, should rejoice at. PRAISE GOD THAT HE HAS SAVED ME WHEN I KNOW WITHOUT HIM I WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!!!!!!!

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

"You made me trust in You." (Psalm 22:9)

Here in the Psalms we see the belief that God MADE someone trust in him. God didn’t just let some free will lead them wherever.....he actually made them come and trust in Him. What a radical concept and so foreign to what we are used to thinking!

John 17:1-3:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God has given Christ authority over all flesh and ordained that He should give eternal life "to as many" as God gave him. Not more, not less....but "to as many" as God wanted saved.


I hope this helps you to understand more of my beliefs and I hope it has made you think. I want to make sure you remember how Scripture says we are dead in sin before we are saved and it is something to ponder how one can be saved if this is true unless God predestined you to be saved and passed over someone else. It seems really harsh of God and it almost makes God seem mean and evil to save some, yet not try to save others. But, I must remember Paul in Romans 9, when he said who are we to judge God. I must remember that predestination is "for the good pleasure of His will" and it isn’t all about me. God does it this way because he wants to. I can’t judge God for it, though sometimes I would like to do so. God knows more than I can ever imagine about what is true, about what is right and God is more holy than even one little cell of my body. God is more perfect than the most perfect creation of man by a million miles and I must remember I am not God.....I am just a creature he made to bring him glory and yet I must bow my knees in thanksgiving that he gave me life, I must bow my knees in thanksgiving for saving me of all the people when I would blaspheme his name in my old ways! Praise be to his Holy name. I must remember also that if God was really fair, I would be in hell right now. His grace in choosing me is more than I can ever understand. His grace in choosing you is great indeed. Thank God for his love shown to you. Even if you don’t believe predestination after reading this, thank God for saving you. Thank God for his mercy and grace. Thank God that he raised you out of the pit and mire of your former self and changed you to love him and begin to show your love to others. Predestination might not be fair, but it sure is a lot better than free will, since everyone would have to reject God by their sinful nature, in my reading of Scripture.

Often there is an analogy to Jesus as a life raft that we can just grab on to in order to save ourselves. I believe that to be a wrong analogy since well, an unsaved person is not drowning spiritually, he is already dead according to Scripture. So, here is my version of this analogy and what I consider the Gospel: When I lay dead on the bottom of a turbulent sea, God took pity and only out of his mercy alone, sent his Son Jesus down to me. Jesus dove to the bottom of the lake and resurrected me. I could not have done anything....I was dead spiritually. I was a goner and could not have came back to life at all unless Jesus made me. On that bottom of the lake, he gave me life and showered me with his loving arms, taking me to the top of the lake and bringing me to safety. I then arose, full of the new life. Jesus was not a life raft that I grabbed onto, he was a doctor who came TO ME and gave me life. I am forever thankful.

God bless you and may you trust in him and find peace whether you end up believing predestination or not.

I will leave you with a quote about predestination:

"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy." Thomas Watson


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: braad; calvin; homosexualagenda
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220221-240241-260 ... 541-547 next last
To: Jerry_M
What happens if one of these elect chooses not to please God as a way of life?
221 posted on 02/20/2002 6:34:38 AM PST by Senator Pardek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
We will have to agree to disagree. I believe I have made the choice to live a life of faith. Just as I could choose to cease living a life for God. I think if you take choice away, we are not free. Paul states we are free in Christ. That's how I have chosen to live. Ephesians says the love of God surpasses all knowledge. We can argue all day long. You may be right, I may be right, but I don't want to argue with a brother in Christ any longer. God Bless.
222 posted on 02/20/2002 6:41:45 AM PST by Rube23
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
Why do you define doctrine by parable and then make the statements of doctrine fit the parable instead of defining doctrine by statements of doctrine and then reading the parables appropriately?

Because they are both parts of the whole and we lack the knowledge to give them differing weights according only to human reason.

You cannot know the mind of God therefore you cannot know the methodology that He uses to determine salvation. That's the difference between us. I accept this and you reject it.

He did send His Son and Holy Spirit to lead us to the right path, that much we know.

223 posted on 02/20/2002 6:43:49 AM PST by FormerLib
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 220 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
Basically, you are saying that if I become a Christian, then I will believe as Christians do, and I will be correct in knowing what God wants and thinks? God is God, I am a human. I don't want to know what God wants or thinks.
224 posted on 02/20/2002 6:48:03 AM PST by stuartcr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 218 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
(It's sister, but that's ok).
225 posted on 02/20/2002 6:48:48 AM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 214 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Jerry_M
You cannot know the mind of God therefore you cannot know the methodology that He uses to determine salvation. That's the difference between us. I accept this and you reject it.

He did send His Son and Holy Spirit to lead us to the right path, that much we know.

God has revealed a mystery to me:

Ephesians 1:9 ...having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,...
I will now reveal that mystery to you. I am a favorite chosen son of God, His elect, through absolutely no merit fo myself for His purpose and His pleasure to the glorification of His name.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
If you ask me why I was chosen and somebody else was not, I will simply say: "This is the question that brings me to my knees in both fear and trembling because I know that I do not deserve it." Nevertheless, having been predestined to adoption as a son, my only desire and my only request is that I may inquire into His temple to behold the beauty of the Lord.
226 posted on 02/20/2002 6:59:51 AM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 223 | View Replies]

To: Senator Pardek
"What happens if one of these elect chooses not to please God as a way of life?"

God chastens them. Sometimes he even cuts their earthly life short (see I Corinthians 11).

I know that I have expereinced His chastening at times, due to the fact that there have been many times when I have displeased Him.

227 posted on 02/20/2002 7:04:44 AM PST by Jerry_M
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 221 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody; RnMomof7; rwfromkansas; rdb3
Seems I won't be able to just walk away! ;-) Just what do the Church Fathers say about this topic? Yes, predestination is discussed, but it is not absent human free will.

On Predestination

From the Writings of Bishop Elias Minatios

The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. (John 1:43)

There is nothing as proud or as curious as the human mind. Though sin has severely weakened it, though faith demands of it blind obedience, it nonetheless still spreads one hundred wings in order to fly up to the highest height; it opens one hundred eyes to investigate the greatest secrets. Yet, all would be well, if it strained so in order to investigate the wondrous works of nature on earth, for this is the innate inclination of man through which he is led to the understanding of all that exists. But, the mind attempts to penetrate the very intangible depths of divine judgements, as if to check that the most high providence of God directs everything wisely and deals properly in regard to the affairs of humans. This is obscene arrogance! Divine predestination is one of the most inaccessible mysteries, locked in the abyss of divine reason and wisdom. The human mind, short on comprehension and limited in its ability to grasp concepts, will never be able to understand this mystery even if it studies and investigates it endlessly. Oh, you learned theologians, I know how you deliberate on divine predestination. You say: "predestination is the foreknowledge and preparation of God's good things by which those who are saved are unalterably saved; that it is the ascension of rational creatures to eternal life, and is the process of being chosen to grace and glory." Yet you do not understand that God foresees from the beginning all that people do within time, that this divine foreknowledge is stable, but the works of humans within time are free. How can we reconcile the unchangeability of God's providence with the free self-determination of intelligent creatures? How is it that the immutability of divine decisions does not lead to inevitability? Why is it beyond question and not subject to chance? We must remove ourselves as far away as possible from these questions and quandaries of the scholars. These questions do not edify, but only confuse the mind. These quandaries do not enlighten, but only darken the intellect. Brothers and sisters, in this realm which defies comprehension, we understand only one thing: Predestination is the combination of divine grace and human will of the grace of God which calls, and the will of man which follows this calling.

Once on His way to Galilee, Jesus finds Philip, and saith unto him, ?Follow Me?. Philip believed and followed Him. We have found Him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph, declares Philip to his comrade Nathanael. In this way Philip is predestined to the honor of the apostleship and to the glory of the heavenly kingdom. This then, is what I will discuss today. I will attempt to prove two positions: first, that God desires to save each and every human, and second, that each human possesses all the freedom necessary to achieve salvation with the help of the grace of God. God desires, and if man desires also, then he or she is already predestined.

The teaching on predestination is a dogma of faith, based on the Sacred Scriptures. No Orthodox Christian has any doubt in this. For whom he did foreknow, Paul clearly states, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified (Romans 8:29,30). The book of divine foreknowledge is incomprehensible to us. In this book, those whom God loves, He inscribed to life, and those whom He despises?to death. Jacob have I love, but Esau have I hated, (Romans 9:13) says God Himself. Just as a potter can make a worthy vessel or an unworthy one from the very same clay, likewise almighty God glorifies as valuable certain of His creatures, while rejecting others as unnecessary. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth (Romans 9:18). God acts according to His own will. Who can contradict Him? Yet, is there then some sort of falsity in God? No, there is not! In our effort to understand this point, take as an example the teachings of St. Paul. His teachings are deep and exalted. The more we delve into them, the less we understand. But what of this? In the question of predestination, all is incomprehensible: everything which Holy Scripture says on this subject is unfathomable. The writings of the holy fathers on this point are difficult. The opinions of the learned theologians on this are murky. This is because our intellect, weak and blind, cannot reach such heights or seek the invisible. This question was not even understood by Paul himself, who had ascended to the third heaven. At this height of divine revelation he saw only indiscernible depths of divine wisdom surpassing all understanding. This is why, filled with wonder he cried out: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33). St. John Chrysostom continues this thought by saying, "Even if it were possible to figure out this question (of predestination), it would nonetheless be unlawful to desire to do so." For us it is sufficient to know these two clear, understandable, basic precepts: first, God desires that we be saved, for He loves mankind. Second, we can be saved, for we are free. Thus, the will of God and the desire of man make up predestination. God desires, and if man desires also, then he or she is already predestined.

Yes, God, the Lover of mankind, desires that we all be saved. This is confirmed by His three non-contradictory attributes: divine justice, divine mercy, and divine providence.

Justice

God granted the law to all people indiscriminately. He desires that all choose to fulfill it. No one is exempt from God's law. Greek or barbarian, the impious or right-believing, Jew or Christian, the law is required of all. What reward awaits those who fulfill the divine law? Salvation and the kingdom of heaven. By the mouth of Isaiah God promises: If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land (Isaiah 1: 19). Would it not be the utmost injustice if God desired that all people conform to His law on the one hand, while on the other He did not desire salvation universally for all? Would He then predestine one portion for salvation and presentence the other to torment? Does He demand that all serve Him equally, yet does not desire to give all equal recompense? No! God is just, He is Justice itself. In giving the law to all, He wills allmen to be saved (I Tim. 2:4), as says the Apostle. St. Ambrose explains, "that having granted the law to all, He excludes no one from His kingdom."

Mercy

What then, compelled God to come down to earth from the heavens and become man? It was His extreme mercy. St. John the Theologian testifies that God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). During His thirty-three years here on earth, how much did the God-man toil, how much did He suffer, and how did He die? The fathers of the Church tell us that as a result of the hypostatic union in Christ of humanity and divinity, each action of Christ is worthy of endless honor and praise. Even the slightest suffering of Christ had potential to expiate the universal sin. One drop of His most pure blood could extinguish all the flames of eternal torment. His death alone, had it been natural, without sickness, could have saved the entire human race. Yet when He suffered, He suffered as no one has. When He shed His blood to the last drop, when He died on the cross, enduring such torment and shame, can we possibly think that He did all this to save only part of the human race, leaving the remainder to be damned? He could so easily have saved everyone. Yet, after such an effort, would He desire to save only a few? Did He expend such a priceless treasure in paying for such a small purchase, did He pour forth all the wealth of His divine mercy just to be benevolent to a numbered few? NO! The Divine gift is for all! The wounds of Jesus Christ are healing for all. The blood of Jesus Christ is the miraculous ladder by which we all can ascend to paradise. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as ransom for all, says Paul (I Tim. 2:5). One died for all (2 Cor. 5:14). If He died for all, then He wants all to be saved. "The Son of Righteousness," we are told by St. Gregory the Theologian, "shown forth for all, lived for all and died and is risen for all."

Providence

In addition to all of this, it is an indisputable and immutable truth, that the most high providence of God assuredly applies to all creation. "God foresees and provides for everything," says St. Basil the Great. Providence applies particularly to the human race. This is that divine fatherly concern in which the blessed Apostle Peter commands us to place our trust: Casting all your care upon him; for He careth for you (I Peter 5:7). It is by the command of God that the sun rises as much for believers as for the unjust. God has established a haven in the seas for both the righteous and the unrighteous. He grants health, success, wealth, distinction to those nations that worship Him and to those who know Him not. If God desires to divide among all His creatures those things for which we were not created, the earthly and temporal, then all the more He desires to give to all, that for which we were created, the heavenly and eternal. If our heavenly Father providentially concerns Himself with all, then He also desires that all be saved. This is why He commands the sun to arise upon the evil and the good, and the rain to fall upon sinners and the righteous.

Thus, God, because of His justice, mercy and providence for all, desires salvation for all. Inasmuch as it depends on Him, He does not desire the ruin of anything, even the most minute. This is declared by the Son of God Himself in His holy Gospel: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish (Matt. 18:14). He calls all to Himself. This is why David says, the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth (Psalm 49:1).

From on high, first by the mouths of the prophets, and in the latter days through His Son, the incarnate Word, God called the whole world to salvation. This is why the heavenly Jerusalem, as seen by John in the Apocalypse, had twelve gates. These gates, grouped in threes, face all the ends of the earth so that we would know that God opened paradise for the entire universe. The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth, for He wants all to be saved.

Yet in actuality, this is only a desire which St. John Damascene (in harmony with the entire choir of theologians) calls preliminary. This desire of God, in and of itself, is not sufficient for the salvation of man. It is only like the pillar of fire which showed the way for the Jews in the desert. It shows the way, but does not force one along the way to salvation. God calls. Yet it is necessary that man listen. The will of God is only one wing. A second wing is necessary for flight to the heavens. This is our will. The will of God and the will of man join to form predestination. God desires; if man desires also, then he is already on the road to salvation.

From the beginning God created man totally free. The Holy Spirit by the lips of the most wise son of Sirach tells us: He Himself made man from the beginning and left him in the hand of his (man's own) will (Ecclesiastes 15:14). God leaves man to live according to his own will and places no constraint upon his freedom. He left him in the hand of his will. God is omnipotent in His authority. Man is omnipotent in his freedom. The entire difference lies in that God does all that He desires, and no power can impede Him in this, while man does nothing that he desires not to, and no power can force him. It is impossible that God not do what He desires. It is also impossible that man do what he does not desire. Thus, just as man cannot be saved without the grace of God, likewise God cannot save man without the free will of man.

"Grace," says the divine Chrysostom (St. John), "though it is grace, yet it saves only those who desire." "Salvation," according to the words of the Theologian (St. Gregory), "must be our work and God's." Rain falls on the ground. Yet the earth does not produce fruit if the husbandman does not labor. The sun shines everywhere. Yet, one who desires to accept its light must open his eyes. This means that God grants all the grace and help, yet the will of man must cooperate with this grace. God desired to save Noah during the flood in which the entire world perished, but He required that he build the ark with his own hands. God wanted to cleanse Nehemiah from leprosy, but He required that Nehemiah himself go and wash in the Jordan. He wants to open the eyes of the one born blind. Yet here again He requires that the blind one wash himself in the pool of Siloam. God desires salvation for all people, but requires that each cooperate in his or her salvation. Man is free and must choose between water and fire, life and death. Man is rational, he is directed by his mind. He can discern good from evil, light from darkness. Written on the heart of each person is the natural law, showing the true way to salvation. Therefore, what is necessary for predestination, if not the freely granted grace of God and the free will of man? God desires; if man desires also, then he is already on the way to salvation.

Yet I know what sort of misunderstanding the question of predestination can evoke in people. They will tell me that it is evident from Sacred Scriptures that even at the time when they were unable to do good or evil, not having yet been born, God loved Jacob and despised Esau. He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. From the very same clay God created two vessels, one for honor the other for dishonor. This means God generously grants grace to one, while not the other. Here God is completely free to do as He wants. For who, says Paul, hath resisted his will? (Romans 9:19). How can it be that God wants salvation for all, if He pours all His love on one side, and all His wrath upon the other? If God despised me before birth as He did Esau, if He hardened my heart like Pharaoh's, if He created me a vessel for dishonor with a corrupt disposition?after all this, where is my freedom to do good, or conduct my salvation? I must admit, dear Christians, that the portion of the Sacred Scriptures, referred to above, can give birth to such perplexity, such bewilderment. Yet it has a different meaning. The mystical blessing given by the Patriarch Isaac to his children did occur according to divine arrangement. If we look at it strictly along lines of human understanding we come to erroneous conclusions. Esau and Jacob are the children of Isaac. Esau is the elder, Jacob the younger. Naturally Esau should have been the first to receive the blessing of his father. But, as it happened, Jacob received it fast. Three factors, three great mistakes contribute to this. And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see... (Genesis 27: 1) Thus, because of blindness, not having checked with whom he is dealing, he gave his blessing to the one who pretended to be the firstborn. This was the first mistake. Next, in order to grant his blessing, Isaac first requested a gift He desired to eat of meat hunted by his son. Go out to the field, and take me some venison; And make me savory meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat (Genesis 27:3,4). Thus he sold his blessing, whereas he should have given it freely. This was the second mistake. Further, Isaac was tricked by his wife Rebecca. Loving Jacob more, she dresses him in the clothes of Esau. Thus Isaac blessed Jacob, taking him to be the firstborn Esau. Later, when he found out, Isaac was astounded And Isaac trembled very exceedingly (Genesis 27:33). In this matter of utmost importance, the patriarch is so easily tricked by his wife. This was the third mistake. Thus being blind, it was for food and through the slyness of another that Isaac gave Jacob the blessing which belonged to Esau. Yet who is Isaac? He is an ordinary man. Yet a man quite often gives a blessing, grants an honor or makes a choice, all the while being blinded by ignorance, or overcome by avarice, or tricked because of innate simplicity. But divine decisions do not resemble decisions of humans. For my thoughts are not your thoughts (Is.55,20). As far as the earth is from the heavens, so differ the judgements of men from God's judgement. God predestines differently, God gives His grace differently, grants His glory differently, chooses differently. God beholds everything. He sees the smallest detail, knows the hidden. God is just and judges each according to his or her worthiness. He regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward (Deut.10:17). God is all-wise and is not deceived by craftiness, is not overcome by passions, does not betray because of weakness. Thus, the all-wise, all-just, omniscient God loved Jacob, for He foresaw the God-pleasing disposition of his heart. He hated Esau (saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau [Malachi 1:2,3] Trans.) for He foreknew his evil disposition. He is merciful to whomever He wishes, for He foreknows that the person will be good and of an obedient will. He hardens whom He wishes, for He foresees that he will be a person of an evil and unrepentant disposition. On the one hand, God makes a vessel of blessing, such as Paul. On the other, He makes a vessel of dishonor, such as Pharaoh, for He foresees that he in actuality is a vessel of wrath, doomed to perdition. This is how we must understand the blessing of Jacob. This is how it is interpreted by the Holy Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom in his sixteenth homily on the ninth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans. Therefore, the mentioned text does not prove that God supposedly does not have a full desire to save you, nor that you lack the full freedom to be saved. The man-loving God always calls you. Freely desire as well, and you will be predestined. We profess that God does what He pleases for He is omnipotent Yet we also know that God does only what is appropriate, for He is just. And even if we do not know the judgements of the Lord, for this is a deep abyss, we nonetheless believe that in God there is no partiality.

When Jesus Christ approaches Jerusalem, James and John the sons of Zebedee come to Him with their mother Salome. They bow down before Him and ask: Grant that one may sit on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom (Math. 20:21). To this strange request Christ answers: Ye know not what ye ask... This is not mine to give. How is this? Is He not almighty God Who can do what He pleases? Who can contradict Him? Who hath resistedhis will? (Romans 9:19). James and John were actual apostles, as were the others. But of all the apostles they had the additional gift of being related to Christ. Granted. But in God there is no partiality. God does not regard solicitation, nor relation. Rebecca could trick Isaac with a lie into performing an injustice. He was a man. But Salome could not convince Christ to be partial. Ye know not what ye ask.. But it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared (Mark 10:38,40). It is as if He says: "On My part just as I do not deny anyone My glory, likewise I do not single out anyone." The one found most worthy will receive preference. The words for "whom it is prepared" explains the Theologian, mean," it will be offered to the truly worthy one, which not only received these attributes from (God) the Father, but also have developed them in themselves." And so, God is not partial. He calls all to enter into His Kingdom. He singles out no one, and prefers only those who are worthy. Be found to be worthy and you will be predestined.

Now you will tell me: "Me, be found worthy? How is this? God knows ahead of time if I am predestined for paradise or doomed to torment. If I am predestined for paradise, to attain it there is need for no further toil. If I am sentenced to torment, it is completely futile for me to try to escape it. Neither in the first case, nor in the second am I free. The foreknowledge of God is exact; that which God foresees most definitely must happen. If I am free to do that which God does not foresee, then God is mistaken, which is not possible." What are you saying, oh man? You say, "If I am free, then God is mistaken?" But I will argue that if I am not free, then God deceives me. If I am not free then He leads me astray, for by the mouths of the prophets and apostles, even by His very own lips, He calls me to repentance, though He knows very well that I most definitely lack the freedom to repent. If I am not free, He deceives me, for He calls me to take up the cross and follow Him. Yet He has bound up my will. He deceives me, for He orders me to adhere to His commandments; yet with His predestination He deprives me of power. And so, if I am not free, then is not our faith a mistake? Is not the Gospel a joke? No! God does not err, for He is Wisdom Itself. He does not deceive others for he is Truth Itself. You do not understand what divine foreknowledge is and what it accomplishes. So listen. This is definitely a stumbling block upon which many have tripped and fallen. Yet, one who thinks as you do is sorely mistaken and very far from the truth. If you are ill, does not God know whether you will recover or die? But just because of this is it true that you should not call a physician, refuse any medicines, and sit with your hands folded and await either health or death? In such a case you would be very unwise, even foolish. It is one thing that God foresees your healing or death (and this is certainly true). It is completely another thing to assume that God's foreknowledge grants you health or death (and this is certainly false). If you take care of yourself, you will be healed, and in the opposite case you will die. God foresees both cases, yet neither is brought into existence by God's foreknowledge. You will either get better or die. Only one of these two is true, but not determined definitively. Try to understand this more fully. God definitely foresees whether you will be in paradise or in hell. In a mirror we are reflected just as we are in reality. The beautiful are beautiful and the reverse. Likewise in Gods pure foreknowledge we appear as we are in actuality, either written in bright letters in the book of life or inscribed in the eternal book of death. If we are righteous, then we are among the ranks of the righteous who are saved. If we are sinners, then we are on the list of condemned sinners. A mirror reflects our appearance. God's foreknowledge reflects our will. This is the view of St. Gregory of Nyssa: "The righteous judgement of God takes into consideration our disposition. He grants to us according to our inner feelings." A mirror, which reflects both the beautiful and the horrid, does not make them so. Likewise the foreknowledge of God, in which one is predestined for paradise, and another is condemned to torment, in actuality does not force one to salvation and the other to condemnation. "Foreknowledge of God, the Theologian tells us, is intuitive and not active." This means that you are saved or condemned, not because God foresees your salvation or condemnation, but that either by your good works you cooperated with Gods grace and God foresees your salvation, or that by your evil deeds you avoid the grace of God and will suffer for it, and God foresees your torment. Thus Judas betrayed Christ not because Christ foresaw his betrayal, but rather Christ foresaw the betrayal of Judas because he intended to betray Christ. Ibis is how the wise Justin, philosopher and martyr speaks about this: "The cause of future events is not foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is the result of future events. The future does not flow forth from foreknowledge, but foreknowledge from the future. It is not Christ who is the cause of the betrayal of Judas. But the betrayal is the cause of the Lord's foreknowledge." If you live in a way which is pleasing to God, you will be saved. If you lead a corrupt life you will perish. God foresees both the first and the second. But neither the first nor the second predetermine God's foreknowledge. You will either be saved or perish. One of these is definitely true, yet not determined beforehand.

Well, and what if I were to tell you that it was already predestined, that it was already decided that you were either saved or would perish? Is it then possible that because of this you no longer need to go to church, or you no longer need to turn to your spiritual father for help, or that you will no longer try to fulfill Christian duties, no longer repent, do nothing on your own and simply wait for either salvation or condemnation? In such a case you would be the most foolish person. Take another look in the mirror, would you please. Today you are healthy and the mirror shows your fine appearance. Tomorrow you may be ill, then it will show your sickly appearance. When you are well again, it will again show the first. Just as your face changes its appearance, so the mirror changes your image. Now then, when you live a God-pleasing life, God foresees you in paradise. Tomorrow if you sin, God will foreordain you for torment. You again repent again you are foreordained for salvation. As you change your life, so God changes His decision. God's judgement conforms to our will and conforms to our disposition.

I will finish with two illustrations from Divine Scripture. The blessed Paul, while bound, sailed to Italy on a certain Alexandrian ship in order to stand before the Emperor. Suddenly in the middle of the deep night, a great storm arises. The wind blows strongly, the sea is turbulent. There is great mortal danger, no hope for salvation. Yet God, desiring to preserve His servant, sends him His angel with the message: Fear not, Paul... God hath given thee all them that sail with thee (Acts 27:24). Hearing this divine promise, the sailors were somewhat heartened that they would be saved and intended to leave the vessel and reach shore by boat. No, says Paul, except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:3 1). What are you saying Paul? Did not God ordain to save all? Does it not matter, if they stay on the ship or not? No, God determined to save them, but requires that they cooperate in this. If everyone does not stay on board and do their job, they perish. Will those perish whom God has destined to be saved? Does God's destination change? Yes, it can be no other way. Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Here's another example: The King Hezekiah became ill. God destines him to die and sends the prophet Isaiah to say: Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live (II Kings 20: 1). The unfortunate Hezekiah turns his face to the wall, sighs, cries, pleads. What are you doing, oh hapless king?! Has not God appointed you to death? Is it not in vain that you cry and plead? Can one whom God has ordained to die, live? Does God's decision change? Yes, brothers and sisters, this determination also changed! God had pity on the tears of Hezekiah and determined that be live. He even granted him fifteen years of life. Thus saith the Lord. I will add unto thy days fifteen years (II Kings 20:5,6).

I desire, brothers and sisters, that there be a determination concerning your salvation. But I must add, that if you do not concern yourselves with this, and do not live a God-pleasing life to the very end, firm in the grace and love of God, despite all decisions about salvation, you will die. And even if your demise has been decided, I tell you that if you will turn back and repent you will be saved despite the determination of your torment. Just as your win goes from good to bad and the reverse. Likewise God's decisions go from salvation to retribution and the reverse. The righteous judgement of God takes into consideration our disposition. He grants to us according to our inner condition. Thus God's foreknowledge and His determinations are not an obstacle to God's desire to save you, nor for you in your freedom to be saved.

Yet (as I stated in the very beginning), it is best for you not to understand anything in this elevated question concerning predestination. In order not to be swayed by some sort of misunderstanding, remember well the following points: God always wants your salvation, for He is the Lover of mankind; and you can always be saved, for you are free. God's grace and your will form predestination. God desires (your salvation): desire (salvation) also, and you will be predestined.

In order to emphasize all that I have said thus far, I ask you to listen to what God says to Jeremiah the prophet: Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear My words (18:2). The prophet went to the house and found the potter making vessels. A certain pot fell from his hands and became deformed. But, he picked it up and returned it to the form which he desired. Then God spoke to Jeremiah: Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand (18:6). Just as the vessel being made fell was ruined, then being ruined, it was again corrected by the skill of the potter, likewise you, oh man, fall into sin; then, having repented, you are corrected by the grace of God. If you are a vessel of honor, nonetheless, you can become a vessel of dishonor. Likewise, from a vessel of dishonor you can turn back into an honorable vessel. But God continues even further and tells you through the prophet: If (a nation) do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them (18:10). If that nation, against whom I have pronounced (to pull down, and to destroy it), turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them (18:8). See how God changes His decision according to how man changes his disposition? God has decided to save the righteous and grant retribution to the sinful. Are you righteous? Watch out that you do not fall, for the determination about your salvation will change into determination about your retribution. If you are sinful, try to repent, and the decision concerning punishment will turn into a decision for your salvation. The righteous judgement of God takes into consideration our disposition. He grants to us according to our inner feelings. Because of this, it does not concern you what God has decided about you, or what God foresees; this is neither helpful nor harmful. You want to know what predestination is? It is the grace of God and the will of man together. God desires, for He is the Lover of mankind: if a man desires also, for he is free, then that man is predestined.

But, oh my soul, what is prepared for me? Are you meant for paradise or hell? Who can tell me this and convince me of it? Brothers and sisters, we are all wanderers in (his life of sorrow; therefore none can know what will take place in the future. That will be revealed in the end. According to whether we are found righteous or sinners, we will receive from the Righteous Judge the crown of glory or the sentence of torment: And (all) shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29). However there is something I can tell you in order to finish my sermon with a story which is very appropriate concerning the question at hand.

Once an evil man came to Apollo of Delphi with a sparrow in his hands, covered with apiece of clothing. He requested them to tell him whether the sparrow was living or dead. This man was sly. If the oracle said that it was lifeless, he intended to show the living sparrow. If he was told that it was living, he intended to suffocate it and show that it was dead. Thus, he wanted to trick the oracle. But his trickery was discovered and he received the following answer: It depends on you to decide, to show what you hold as living or dead. You too, oh Christian, ask whether eternal life or eternal death is in store for your soul. It depends on you to decide. Your predestination depends on the will of God and your will. The will of God is always ready. This means that things are determined only by your will. God desires (your salvation); if you desire this also, then you are predestined for eternal life.

228 posted on 02/20/2002 7:06:36 AM PST by FormerLib
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 226 | View Replies]

To: stuartcr
Re. 224.

While I haven't yet said it, you will have the "mind of Christ" if you come to Christ. The fact that you don't presently want to think like God is understandable. That is why He would have to change both your mind and your heart in regeneration (being "born again") prior to your embracing Him and His truth.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:14-16

229 posted on 02/20/2002 7:09:25 AM PST by Jerry_M
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 224 | View Replies]

To: Freedom'sWorthIt
"(It's sister, but that's ok)."

mea culpa. Sorry about that "sis".

230 posted on 02/20/2002 7:11:00 AM PST by Jerry_M
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 225 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Well 228 just goes to show that the Eastern tradition is one of syncretism, but don't you think that an article of that length could have used it's own thread?
231 posted on 02/20/2002 7:12:28 AM PST by Jerry_M
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 228 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Jerry_M; rwfromkansas; rdb3; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc
Seems I won't be able to just walk away! ;-) Just what do the Church Fathers say about this topic? Yes, predestination is discussed, but it is not absent human free will.

Should I even bother to read your essay since you obviously don't even understand our position? When have any of us denied that Biblical Predestination is absent human free will?

Oh, well, perhaps tonight, just to see if you can even get close to Biblical Predestination.

232 posted on 02/20/2002 7:15:40 AM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 228 | View Replies]

To: Rube23
If believers are predetermined, there would be no need to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Come now, that's to easy. We do not know who is elect and who is not. I may be the one who brings Jones to Christ, (through the the power of the Holy Spirit) all of which is foreordained. As a Calvinist, I am still obligated to spread the Good News. Those foreordained will accept Christ as their Savior.

I have never heard a Calvinists say they don't have the obligation to spread the Good News because a person's salvation is already determined. Instead free willers accuse us of taking that position.

233 posted on 02/20/2002 7:16:09 AM PST by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
Why would I want to think like God?
234 posted on 02/20/2002 7:23:00 AM PST by stuartcr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 229 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
Post #214 - wholeheartedly say AMEN to all that you wrote and what Spurgeon said.

And, the Ocean of God's love awaits "whosoever" turns to Him. After that turning, after this person is in heaven or with Jesus here on this earth - we will be able to see written on the back of his shirt: "CHOSEN".

Until then, may we encourage any who have been hungering and thirsting to know God to turn unto Jesus Christ - the author and finisher of our Faith - the One in Whom all the Promises of God are Yea and Amen! Hallelujah! What a Savior!

235 posted on 02/20/2002 7:23:09 AM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 214 | View Replies]

To: stuartcr
"Why would I want to think like God?"

Honestly, in your present state, you don't want to think like God. That is understandable, you are free to do as you want.

However, as one who has been granted "the mind of Christ", I wouldn't want to go back to the old earth-bound thinking that chained me to my sin and selfishness. I am truly "free indeed" in my relationship with Christ, and look forward to an eternity spent in His presence giving praise and glory to His name. I can conceive of no greater joy than experiencing Him without end.

236 posted on 02/20/2002 7:32:25 AM PST by Jerry_M
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 234 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
I don't understand how earth-bound thinking makes you "chained to your sin and selfishness"?
It seems to me that the very beliefs that you espouse, are the ones that make you think you are chained in sin, etc. I have earth-bound thinking, as does every human who has ever existed, because we are earth-bound. I don't feel chained to sin and selfishness, why do you?
You are a Christian and believe what the bible says. The bible apparently says to you that you are chained in sin, etc., and the only way to be free is to be a Christian and believe what the bible says. This is very confusing to me, it appears to me that this is a sort of self-supporting cycle.
237 posted on 02/20/2002 8:00:01 AM PST by stuartcr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 236 | View Replies]

To: Freedom'sWorthIt;OrthodoxPresbyterian
Yes I do know Vernon McGee , I listened to him as a new Christian and still enjoy him today.

I will flag this to Orthidox Presbyterian for a comment..because it seems to me I remember a conversation about Vernon on another thread..If memory serves he had his own theology on this..he believed there were some elect and then there were some that could choose to be elect..I think that theology has a name..But I do not remember..OP might :>)

238 posted on 02/20/2002 8:00:35 AM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
...don't you think that an article of that length could have used it's own thread?

Not really. Postings which encourage Christian bickering detract from our efforts to build a moral society upon which we can all agree. IMHO, anyway.

239 posted on 02/20/2002 8:01:45 AM PST by FormerLib
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 231 | View Replies]

To: Jerry_M
All men are free to do exactly as they want, just as God is free to do exactly what He wants.

Actually, both parts of this statement are false.

Men are not free to do exactly as they want. If my neighbor wants to kill exactly 500 people but gets caught and put in prison after the third one he is no longer free to do what he wanted. He was only free to a point, the point at which the consequences of his choices caught up with him.

And God is not free to do exactly what He wants, either. God cannot lie, for example (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). You may argue that God doesn't want to lie, therefore He can still do anything He wants. But if He has given us requirements for salvation, e.g. John 3:5, then He cannot save us if we don't comply -- even if He wants to. Otherwise He would have lied and would therefore be imperfect and would not be God.

240 posted on 02/20/2002 8:02:05 AM PST by Some hope remaining.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 201-220221-240241-260 ... 541-547 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson