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The Next Reformation? 9.5 Thesis Posted on 'Church Door'!
The Prophecy Reformation Institute ^
| 2001
| John Noe
Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: Jerry_M
I'm not entirely sure what preterist means. It seems to mean believing that everything in the Bible has already been fulfilled.
I'm not sure I quite go that far since I think there are a few passages that seem to be pretty clear that refer to a day when the dead will rise and Christ will return and every will see it.
However, I do think that a lot of the passages that people bring up saying "See? It's all about to end" might have meant something different to the people they were written to. I don't think they would have interpreted them as not to be fulfilled for 2000 years or so, given that over and over, they were told to pay attention to what they were reading since the time was at hand.
In particular, I don't think sacrifices are going to be offered in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. At least not as a fulfillment of prophecy. That doesn't mean someone might not do it, but if they did, the sacrifices would not be any more pleasing to God then they were between 33 and 70 when the temple was destroyed. The teachings of the letters to the Colossians, Romans, and especially Galatians and Hebrews are pretty clear to me that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and fulfilled the Mosaic law. So I don't really expect to see the temple rebuilt any time soon.
Gamma
To: George W. Bush
So if an evangelist at Pentecost spoke a word in his own language that had five lip movements but the corresponding language in which he was heard had that word as three lip movements, then apparently the crowd at Pentecost were the first ones to ever see a really bad lip-syncing job! Like what we see in some cheap foreign film.
You make some reasonable points, particularly that about their native tongue. This is exactly what was happening hence the "in which we were born" caveat. The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.
No matter how you slice it, the gift of tongues at Pentecost can only make sense if God's Spirit was working in the speaker, not in the hearers.
Not so.
282
posted on
01/18/2002 3:52:15 AM PST
by
vmatt
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Concerning 2 Peter 3: The heavens and earth were burned with "fervent heat". Heavens (God's "Old Covenant" with the Jews) Earth (Physical symbol and applications of the "old covenant" and law). The Temple was literally "burned" and utterly left "desolate" (Matt 23-24).NATE, I agree and am working up a study on this. Don't let up, this is the most powerful verses against fulfillment (I don't like the term preterism) and you are on the right track. Please pay particular attention to this tongues discussion unless you too are convinced I am "slobbering gibberish", a "liar" and given to "epileptic seizures". Satans vocabulary keeps up with the latest medical information, interesting.
283
posted on
01/18/2002 4:05:40 AM PST
by
vmatt
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Nate, not that I am denying that there is end time symbolism involved in figuring this out, but it does seem that your full Preterist view takes it a bit to far.
284
posted on
01/18/2002 5:08:00 AM PST
by
CCWoody
To: vmatt
I can't provide anything on this, but I beleive there have always been those mostly among the poor to very poor who have touched God and received this gift. That would mean mostly uneducated and needy people who would be ridiculed by anyone for speaking about it and at times even killed as heretics.
It's a modern practice. I don't think anyone has ever made a serious claim of any sort that it was occurring to any extext prior to the twentieth century. There are many heresies described in church and civil documents and it generally seems that in such cases they made some attempt to record the justification for punishing or killing a heretic. I don't think that any of the first practicioners of tongues a hundred years ago made any claim that they had any predecessors.
To: vmatt
You did manage to miss the point I was trying to make.
Don't assume that just because I don't stand with you that I don't believe in Spiritual Gifts or that I have not had any supernatural experiences.
286
posted on
01/18/2002 5:15:40 AM PST
by
CCWoody
To: vmatt
The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.
So the crowds remarks should be read as "Hey, these guys are talking just like drunks do in my hometown?"
I don't know what to say. Your angelic language theory has a lot of problems. And since you believe that the real miracle of Pentecost was in the hearing of tongues and not in the speaking of tongues, then why did the Holy Spirit need to come on the speakers and not the hearers?
And where do you find in the bible the notion of angelic languages and the idea that they are understood by every human in their native dialect?
More than that, why angelic languages at all? Why you think God separated the angels into language groups? Where is this idea in the Bible?
If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted?
Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not?
To: CCWoody
Nate, not that I am denying that there is end time symbolism involved in figuring this out, but it does seem that your full Preterist view takes it a bit to far.
And I do not deny this appearance which is why I ask you to respond to my charges of taking Luke 21:22 too lightly.
Please respond to this. If you forgot what I said, please see this link of mine.
This verse begs a response from all who claim "partial" fulfillment.
It really is the key along with Daniel 12.Preterist?
To: vmatt; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. Post #244: It is the Gospel itself which Man finds alternatively Astounding or Offensive... and it was their response to the Gospel, good or ill, which informed the opinions of the sojourners as to whether the Power over Foreign Tongues was truly a miracle of God, or a drunken carnival event to be derided (and ignored as quickly as possible). - OrthodoxPresbyterian
You are still missing the point that OP and I are trying to make with you.
Some of these people are spiritually dead and some are not because they have been regenerated and born of God. Read Post #273 again.
289
posted on
01/18/2002 5:50:31 AM PST
by
CCWoody
To: CCWoody
Sorry Woody,
Here it is again.
here
To: CCWoody;vmatt; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Keep it up guys. You are giving me a lot to study over my 2 week leave!!
I am still leaning Woody but Vmatt has made some valid challenges requiring a look.
To: vmatt, George W. Bush
The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.Your words are simply lies, vmatt. We know that they are lies because that is not what Luke recorded -- and if it is a battle of historical record and theology between you and Luke, news flash, Luke wins, you lose.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Luke states categorically that the Apostles spoke in the tongues of the foreign sojourners, NOT in any kind of imagined holy gibberish. THEREFORE, any who would twist and pervert (in fact, re-word entirely) the plainest words of Scripture, inventing ideas of "angelic language" into the Text which are not there in the service of buttressing their Gospel of Gibber, must be regarded as liars in the service of the Father of Lies.
You re-word Scripture to serve your own purposes! Good grief.
You can't do that. Scripture is Infallible; your personal emotivistic experiences of drooling epileptic convulsion, are not. Period.
have never been the same since and have experienced other things from this same power which would bring me even more ridicule if revealed.
Perhaps RIGHTLY so!!
Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 23: 31-32)
If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted? Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not? ~~ GWB
I doubt vmatt will realize this, but this ironic question is an utterly damning indictment of his position.
A case of Michelob says he'll miss your point entirely (such an easy bet for a Presbyterian to make with a Baptist... like you'd actually collect, heh heh!!)
To: George W. Bush
It's a modern practice. I don't think anyone has ever made a serious claim of any sort that it was occurring to any extext prior to the twentieth century. There are many heresies described in church and civil documents and it generally seems that in such cases they made some attempt to record the justification for punishing or killing a heretic. I don't think that any of the first practicioners of tongues a hundred years ago made any claim that they had any predecessors.The Saturday Evening Post, May 16, 1964, p. 32 - Praying in tongues has recurred at intervals throughout the Christian era, although it did not affect large masses until early in this century. Its advocates were quickly expelled from the established churches, whereupon they established the Pentecostal churches. For 50 years it remained the almost exclusive possession of the Pentecostal churches.
I found this confirming my contention that tongues is indeed as old as Christianity itelf. I did not source this but I am already convinced beyond doubt that this was the case. Mankind has not found a way to control this gift and present it in a nice neat box for sale. It is truly like the wind blowing where it will. You see yourselves the attempts of churches regarding the precious gifts of God, they pervert them to mandated rituals like the false healing, burning breast and gibberish phenomenon. I see them to, am apalled and this is the reason I am not attending an assembly today. Do not let these works of Satan blind your minds and turn to me a deaf ear when I speak the truth.
293
posted on
01/18/2002 6:37:03 AM PST
by
vmatt
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
"The second coming was essential to our completed salvation. It was the time that all things would be put "under His feet." Would that somehow relate to the fulfilling of the following scripture:
"Mr 12:36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet."
If so, would that point to the possibility that the 'second coming' was more like an internal revelation given to the individual rather than an external manifestation to the masses?
Could history be used as a metaphor -- or a parable to understand what occurs to the indivdual in their spiritual quest and progress?
Assuming for the sake of illustration that this is true, that would make us, the natural mind, the footstool of the mind of Christ as carnal thinking atrophies -- carnality being defined as the attributes of a mind focused outward, unable and perhaps unwilling to discern and accept spiritual laws and concepts. Taking John the Baptist's words, we could say that we decrease while He increases in us on an individual basis.
Is the internalization of the 'second coming' where you are essentially coming from or leading up to?
Thanks for the nudge.
To: George W. Bush
So the crowds remarks should be read as "Hey, these guys are talking just like drunks do in my hometown?""How are we all hearing the same person speaking in all our own different native languages? Look, their lips are moving awkwardly. Hmmm. They must be drunk...wait, this is "confounding", "amazing", "marveling", impossible!
WHAT MEANETH THIS?
295
posted on
01/18/2002 6:48:52 AM PST
by
vmatt
To: vmatt
I see them to, am apalled and this is the reason I am not attending an assembly today. Do not let these works of Satan blind your minds and turn to me a deaf ear when I speak the truth. Sorry, I couldn't hear the second because of the first one. Do you honestly expect me to regard your words as the Truth when you don't even gather with other saints?
I hear this line all the time:
"I don't go to church because they are full of hypocrites." ~~ Great, cause they are full of current and former whoremongers as well. And they are full of murderers and all kinds of vile worms. Christ came for the ungodly.
Honestly, what do you expect when you look for a church that espouses your version of tongues. I searched for 16 long years when I left the Episcopal before I found a home. In the end, I had to help build her.
OTOH, it does seem as if you are just reversing/confusing your position because of the heat you are rightfully taking for such an unBiblical version of tongues. Hmmmmmm!
296
posted on
01/18/2002 7:15:54 AM PST
by
CCWoody
To: Eastbound
Is the internalization of the 'second coming' where you are essentially coming from or leading up to?
I believe you have just described the "we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye!"
The internal happening at His coming was the "change" that took place during their flight and the witness of the events at 70 AD.
I do believe Christ actually, literally came, in presence, in a cloud, the shikinah glory, at the destruction of the temple.
His second coming was one in judgement to the Jewish people, as many times before in the old testament, and one in deliverance for the Christians from their persecution, and from their bondage to the "law!!"
To: CCWoody;vmatt
I found a home. In the end, I had to help build her.
Home is truly where the heart is. Where Christ is is home. He is in my heart, not a building. Vmatt gathers with us daily. We pray for one another.
I attend because I like the challenge and some fellowship, even if many are willingly decieved.
The "establishment" is of man. God did away with it long ago.
There is no more pastoral authority, just "brotherly fellowship."
If Vmatt gets sick at heart to hear someone "preach", as with authority, and the man is preaching half-truths (being nice about it) then I will not blame him.
I am glad God graced me with good filters and some more tolerance for it.
To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Sigh.
I find your position--exceedingly--wellllll--blind and/or silly. . . but I think it will take events to prove it to you. . . I only hope you are open enough to see things in front of your face at those times.
No, I don't care to argue the specifics. I have other fish to fry.
299
posted on
01/18/2002 8:59:16 AM PST
by
Quix
To: All
You can find a critical review of John Noe's "Beyond the Endtimes"
by clicking
here.
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