Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation
Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'
We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.
1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).
3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?
4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.
6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.
7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.
8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.
9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?
Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "
Original Signatories
John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee
Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.
Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the ‘Left Behind’ Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus’ Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.
* (top priority—read first)
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110
Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030
Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.
_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.
Satan has you by the testicles on this one NATE. This might be one purpose of your first three day fast. If you sincerely ask God to show you if this is really for today He will do it. It isn't even a really big deal in relation to other experiences he is waiting to give those who will hunger and thirst after righteousness. I must be a witness to you that the gift of the Holy Ghost will give you the tongues experience. I know this as sure as I know anything. NATE get this: bet you never considered the literal interpretation of this verse in light of fasting?
Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Of course I'm appealing to reason alone but I cannot imagine the use for such a monstrosity and these measurments are almost always measurments representing time periods or other things. Wonder how long it took John to measure such a thing with a reed? Do you think he walked 1500 miles to do it?
So, does everybody who has the gift of the Holy Ghost speak or pray in tongues? If not, why not?
...and your thoughts are...?
Personally, regarding interpretation, and in this instance, the normal sense makes the most sense, so I take it to be what it says it is...a huge city...the New Jerusalem...where the sun need not shine, but the glory of the Lord illumitates for all.
Then again, I obviously don't hold to the preterist view.
I believe so, if I did I can't imagine why anyone else wouldn't.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
This has nothing to do with preterism. Does this verse mean if one overcomes they will be walking pillars with three names written upon them? Does that make literal sense to you?
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
D.James Kennedy? I don't know. I have always "felt" that he is a historical pre type of guy, but I can't definitively put my finger on any teaching of his that would confirm that fact. Maybe you would want to check the Coral Ridge web site.
What about other gifts of the Spirit like say prophecy?
1 Cor. 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostle? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Now, are you simply talking about a prayer language or are you talking about a corporate gift of tongues?
I spoke in tongues when receiving the Holy Ghost and not once since. Those who continue this gifts operation have this specific gift IMO but I have never witnessed an authentic operation of tongues with interpretation. I believe that if an assembly would clean the slate and begin desiring and actively seeking these spiritual gifts they would be successful. Satan is winning this one but I remain hopeful.
"...make a pillar in the temple of my God..."
Now you're talking about a diferent topic entirely.
Previously, we were talking about the city itself, now you're talking about pillars in the temple. The normal sense to understand the pillar is that it is not literal.
careful.
Are you really bent upon stirring up dispute?
You can disagree with me as long as you are open to this between you and God and I have no doubt you are and I remind you ONLY Satan stands in your way. The "churches" of Satan are alive and well and are perverting everything God has given us. It is a direct analogy with the Jewish synogogues of old. Don't allow their pervertions of truth and blasphemy of the Holy Ghost to affect your faith and walk.
You are a crusader for truth and fight the pervasive current "deception" in the "church". You have to admit that tongues, is one of the most abused teachings in todays church.
Divine healing is worse in its effect. That is why God, in His infinate wisdom and mercy, gave me this experience at home alone. The majority of all teachings in churches today are grossly perverted. Even the seven churches with all gifts operating soon were allowing Satan to enter in. We must begin anew with dedication and charity.
The temple is in the city. All around are 1500 mile high gleaming jewels and golden streets but somehow the pillars holding it all up, which is what pillars are, suddenly become symbolism? The very verse I presented is referring to the city within its context. I'll give you something to consider. This is the key to understanding the figurative city of New Jerusalem.
Exodus 39:7 And he put them on the shoulders of the ephod, that they should be stones for a memorial to the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
8 And he made the breastplate of cunning work, like the work of the ephod; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 It was foursquare; they made the breastplate double: a span was the length thereof, and a span the breadth thereof, being doubled.
10 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row.
11 And the second row, an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
12 And the third row, a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
13 And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper: they were inclosed in ouches of gold in their inclosings.
14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.
Is everything in the Bible allegorical to you? By the time you two get done, you have reduced the whole Word to a pile of gibberish, where apparently nobody except you two self-appointed interpreters have the key. Nonsense!
You and Nate have already claimed that Jesus is merely a cloud...where does it end?
Signs of antichrist teachings.
What an insult your words are to the Lord of Glory!
Please stop bothering me with your bogus liberal interpretive methods and keep it among yourselves. I have politely attempted to bow out of this thread twice already, but you are being obnoxious, showing that your heart is bent only upon arguing.
I'm really tired of reading your baloney.
You are being annoying. Show some manners and go away.
Take care and may God bless you in your walk with Him.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.