Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation
Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'
We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.
1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).
3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?
4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.
6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.
7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.
8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.
9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?
Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "
Original Signatories
John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee
Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.
Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the Left Behind Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.
* (top priorityread first)
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110
Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030
Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.
_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.
Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Denying the final judgement (Rev 20) is to deny Christ's sacrifice. Is this where you stand?
You have done much for the ecumenical movement--like reminding us of the differences between disagreement and outright heresy.
You can and must judge to be fair. I have experienced biblical powers which are absolutely real and authentic. Herein is something to chew on: I know without the slightest doubt that I could instruct anyone willing how to "pray the father" and receive spiritual blessings from the Holy Spirit, poured out two thousand years ago. And this is my witness: If one such as I could be so blessed, almost anyone certainly can also. What I am talking about is by no means an end all, but it is a necessary foundation stone on which one must build. NATE, get this, Satan is the only one standing in anyone's way and can duplicate this gift!;)
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
You said; "The most frustrating thing about the futurist view is a lack of understanding the use of symbols and language in the Bible. They just DON'T CARE! If it fits their fantasy view, ignore context and language usage."
The exact same accusations that you make against the futurists can be made toward the preterists. It is however interesting that you feel the need to throw out attacks against opposing perspectives and those holding them, rather than merely defending you position. Careful! We are all His sheep and though we may disagree in prophetic interpretation, your statement that 'They just DON'T CARE!'" is reckless, unfounded, unloving, arrogant and uncalled for in the body of Christ.
You further stated; "I believe Christ came in 'like manner' (Acts 1) (hint, hint) in a real cloud. The Shikinah glory"
First, regardless of what you may believe, this belief of yours is not substantaited by the Acts 2 account of this appearing of the Holy Sprit. The text tells us that this was the person of the Holy Sprit which came upon them, not the person of Jesus Chrsist, ressurrected and glorified. Also, we know this was not Jesus, because in John's gospel (chapters 14 & 16), Jesus tells us that He must go away so that another may come...that "another" is the Holy Spirit and is NOT the person of Jesus Christ.
Also, There is no mention of Shikinah Glory, nor is there mention of a cloud in the Acts 2 account. Your beliefs in this matter are in contrast to the clear reading of the text.
Also, the testimony of Peter at the time declared that this is the Holy Spirit that descended that day, when Peter replied to the crowd; "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh" (Acts 2:15-17) Your beliefs on this matter are, again, in contradiction with the Word.
What about in a real resurrected body!?! Your explaination is not in "like manner" at all. It is a different manner completely. If it were "like manner", the resurrected body of Jesus would have been seen. Instead, what was seen was a rushing wind and tounges of fire. No mention of clouds, or the Shikinah Glory of God anywhere in the text; these suppostions are from your mind alone and are not found in the text. Again, this appearing in Acts 2 of the Holy Spirit is in a different manner completely from the manner accounted for in Acts 1:9-11.
"Josephus also declared seeing this..."
But Jospehus never saw Jesus!...and if he did, it would ahve to be a return in "like manner" as was prophesied. Unfortuantley, Josephus is known for his hyberbolic and self-aggrandizing descriptions, is not considered to be a writer inspired by the Holy Spirit, and his writings are not considerd as canonical by any school of theology that I am aware of. So we can discredit his testimony in this matter as unreliable and certainly not meritous of establishing the preterist perspective of the second coming of Chrsit in the flesh during the first century.
The allegorical interpretation of Scripture leaves the liberal interpreter to change all the doctrines of Scripture at his convenience so as to support personal agendas. For instance, if "1000 years" (which is often repeated in Revelation) could mean anything, according to the liberal interpreter, so then can "two of each kind of animal", "three days and nights", or "six days", or "on the seventh day" mean anything also. Where does the allegory stop, except at the personal convenience of the liberal interpreter? Allegorical interpretation is dangerous business and at best is no more that deductive analysis rather than inductive analysis and permits bringing a personal agenda into the text rather than allowing the test to speak for itself.
Too often, it is this liberal method of interpretation that is employed by cults. Not saying here that you are a cultist, just making a note of the fact.
peace.
And to this quote, you replied...
"They used "the whole earth", "the world", "all nations" to describe or exagerate the greatness or importance of something."
So...are you trying to say that Jesus meant something other than what He clearly said?...namely that "all tribes of men" really should be better translated (according to you) as "a self-exageration by Jesus, of His greatness or importance, and of His own return in glory and reign upon the earth"?
Please! Stop the ride...I want off!
According to your interpratation, what does "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."(Phil.2:10) really mean?
If we apply your interpretation methods, as you've laid them out for us, we would come to understand that...well...you see...it doesn't reeeeally mean every knee...it..well..means that Jesus is just REEEAAAALLLLYY important!
You see the problem with the allegorical method of interpretation. In Phillipians 2:10, you cetainly must agree that "everyone" clearly means "everyone" , but in Matthew 24:30, "everyone", to you, just means...well...it'll be REALLY important. You are forced to jump through these hoops in order to remain in your preterist interpretation, but fail to apply your interpretation methods evenly and equally to all references in Scripture and when you do, you end up preverting the clear teaching of the Word.
So when Jesus the Christ says "everyone" he didn't mean what He said, but when Paul, the chief among sinners says "everyone", he means exactly what he says? That would be rather odd dontchathink?
Like I said earlier....the liberal allegorical methods of interpretation are dangerous....and now I'll add that they are contradictory to their own employment and to the clear teaching of Scripture.
What is the proper use of the Gift of Tongues?
This just fascinates me, never before had I heard someone admit these things. Your honesty is humbling and I'm glad you had those experiences.
What biblical basis for tongues continuation do you have?
My guess is that you know them as well as I. I'll get to them but let me relate something of my experience that I have found to be somewhat rare. I received my first experience in 1976 alone in my apartment and it changed my life totally. I consider this when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost, precisely what I was begging God for, and spoke in tongues for the first and only time. This was one of several experiences over the coming years that have been a source of great joy. Since then I have learned much and have seen how this gift, if allowed, will work. Like I always say, there is a lot of unlearning we all must do and Satan is against us at every step. Fasting is one of Satan's worst enemies.
16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.
Esther 5 1 Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.
2 And it was so, when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, that she obtained favour in his sight: and the king held out to Esther the golden sceptre that was in his hand. So Esther drew near, and touched the top of the sceptre.
3 Then said the king unto her, What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be even given thee to the half of the kingdom.
You are correct. The great White Throne will be only for the perishing...
"And I saw a great white throne...
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works(only the perishing trust in their works for salvation).
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:11-15)
The Great White throne judgement is the judgement of the dead, not the redeemed. Nowhere in this passage are the redeemed even mentioned. We are not there, because we have escaped death into life, by the blood of the Lamb. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
The redeemed will face a different judgement, called the Bema Seat Judgement, where the quality of our works, whether done in the energy of the flesh, or in the work of the Spirit will be put into the refining fire and rewarded for those things which were of gold, silver, and precious gems. Those works of the flesh shall be burnt up as though they were of wood hay and stubble. (1Cor. 3:8-15)
But back to the original question though...
You have said that Jesus fulfilled the Acts 1:9-11 prophecy during the first century...
"...while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".(Mat. 24:30)Yet, every conservative commentary that I have read about this event interprets this to mean that Jesus will return bodily to the earth in the same manner in which He bodily departed. You however, have focused only upon clouds and some reference to Josephus and have not addressed that the manner in which Jesus departed and will return is in His resurrected and glorified body.
In the spirit of the Bereans, I have taken your advice...
After a careful study of the term "in like manner" (on tropon), it is easy to see that it is referring to "[in] a manner, way, fashion, as, even as, like as". This term is specifically used to represent "an exact manner" as it is also used in Mat. 23:37; Luk. 13:34; Acts 7:28, 15:11, 27:25; Jud 1:7.
So, I ask you again, when did Jesus ever return in bodily form to rightly fulfill the prophecy of Acts 1:9-11.
Just to note...Joesphus wrote of things he didn't actually see first-hand concerning the Messiah, he only relates second and third-hand testimony and certainly has a reputation of exaggeration in his relating of history, so as to paint himself as more important that he actually was. His reputation, though good for general insight to the on-goings of the times is not as a reliable witness for submitting evidence upon which a jury could clearly decide crucial facts. As a witness, he would certainly be dismissed as not reliable in most courts, as historians have trouble with many of his accounts. His testimony doesn't even address the bodly return of Christ, but merely tells of clouds, and neither have you addressed this important subject, but have also merely discussed the appearance of clouds and the possibility that they might hint at the Shikinah glory in 70 AD, but mention nothing of Jesus' bodily return, as He said He would do.
I put so much emphasis on His bodily return, because the original language supports it, Jesus himself proclaimed it, and the apolstles taught it.
Also, if the bodily return of Jesus was to be so important, where is the eyewitness testimony? Certainly, if this had happened, as you say it did, during the first century, we'd have some specific reference to it! You say that when Jesus said of His own return...
"then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Mat. 24:30)
...that He merely implied that it would be important, but that in your opinion, not all the tribes of the earth would indeed see the event, as Jesus clearly stated, and, again, according to your interpretation, we should only understand this as to mean a really important event and not a really visible event. If it is, as you say, merely an important event and not a really visible and important event, shouldn't we have some eyewitnesses to the alleged event? I mean the Creator of the Universe, the Word Incarnate, the Son of God is going to return again in His resurrected flesh, shouldn't we have at least one thousand or so witnesses available with clear testimony, for it should have been as obvious as "lightning flashing from East to West" After all, this seems like a pretty HUGE event to me and to all other believers!
Where is the real evidence for His real bodily return?
Jesus warned that there would come false christs and false sightings of His return, when He cautioned...
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not...Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (Mat. 24:23,26-28)
His coming is described with a warning about those who would claim falsly that He had come in secret...in a small way, but Jesus Himself said that His bodily return will in fact be so pronounced as to be obvious to all available to witness it. Lightning from East to West is pretty visible and the vulture is a sure sign of a carcass nearby. He said that it would be so obvious that it will be unmistakable.
Where is the eveidence for this "unmistakeable" bodily return?
The truth is, there is no evidence, because He hasn't yet returned yet.
peace
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