Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: woollyone
So...are you trying to say that Jesus meant something other than what He clearly said?...namely that "all tribes of men" really should be better translated (according to you) as "a self-exageration by Jesus, of His greatness or importance, and of His own return in glory and reign upon the earth"?

NO, no, no!!

Josephus used "the whole earth" to exagerate how revered the temple is.
"All men" did not know of the temple, but all civilized society had heard of it. That does not mean that Mr. Peasant in the alley in Rome knew of it.

In the style of the language used, Christ is referring to the "whole earth" or "all people" being aware of the Destruction of the "holy people". Their "shattering"(daniel 12) at the hands of the Jews, would be well know.

Obviously you will ignore this common use of that term in Jewish language also. I cannot help that.

John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

I guess it is NOT appointed unto all men once to die, then the judgment. I guess the great white throne was not for all.

Every statement uttered is done in context of the whole of scripture.

We do not live in the times of old.
OUR time has this as it's judgment. Those who are wicked go from death to judgment. Those who are saved go strait to life.
Christ took our judgment upon Himself.
155 posted on 01/15/2002 3:48:01 PM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies ]


To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
"I guess the great white throne was not for all."

You are correct. The great White Throne will be only for the perishing...

"And I saw a great white throne...
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
(only the perishing trust in their works for salvation).
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Rev. 20:11-15)

The Great White throne judgement is the judgement of the dead, not the redeemed. Nowhere in this passage are the redeemed even mentioned. We are not there, because we have escaped death into life, by the blood of the Lamb. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The redeemed will face a different judgement, called the Bema Seat Judgement, where the quality of our works, whether done in the energy of the flesh, or in the work of the Spirit will be put into the refining fire and rewarded for those things which were of gold, silver, and precious gems. Those works of the flesh shall be burnt up as though they were of wood hay and stubble. (1Cor. 3:8-15)

But back to the original question though...

You have said that Jesus fulfilled the Acts 1:9-11 prophecy during the first century...

"...while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".(Mat. 24:30)
Yet, every conservative commentary that I have read about this event interprets this to mean that Jesus will return bodily to the earth in the same manner in which He bodily departed. You however, have focused only upon clouds and some reference to Josephus and have not addressed that the manner in which Jesus departed and will return is in His resurrected and glorified body.

In the spirit of the Bereans, I have taken your advice...
After a careful study of the term "in like manner" (on tropon), it is easy to see that it is referring to "[in] a manner, way, fashion, as, even as, like as". This term is specifically used to represent "an exact manner" as it is also used in Mat. 23:37; Luk. 13:34; Acts 7:28, 15:11, 27:25; Jud 1:7.

So, I ask you again, when did Jesus ever return in bodily form to rightly fulfill the prophecy of Acts 1:9-11.

Just to note...Joesphus wrote of things he didn't actually see first-hand concerning the Messiah, he only relates second and third-hand testimony and certainly has a reputation of exaggeration in his relating of history, so as to paint himself as more important that he actually was. His reputation, though good for general insight to the on-goings of the times is not as a reliable witness for submitting evidence upon which a jury could clearly decide crucial facts. As a witness, he would certainly be dismissed as not reliable in most courts, as historians have trouble with many of his accounts. His testimony doesn't even address the bodly return of Christ, but merely tells of clouds, and neither have you addressed this important subject, but have also merely discussed the appearance of clouds and the possibility that they might hint at the Shikinah glory in 70 AD, but mention nothing of Jesus' bodily return, as He said He would do.

I put so much emphasis on His bodily return, because the original language supports it, Jesus himself proclaimed it, and the apolstles taught it.

Also, if the bodily return of Jesus was to be so important, where is the eyewitness testimony? Certainly, if this had happened, as you say it did, during the first century, we'd have some specific reference to it! You say that when Jesus said of His own return...

"then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Mat. 24:30)

...that He merely implied that it would be important, but that in your opinion, not all the tribes of the earth would indeed see the event, as Jesus clearly stated, and, again, according to your interpretation, we should only understand this as to mean a really important event and not a really visible event. If it is, as you say, merely an important event and not a really visible and important event, shouldn't we have some eyewitnesses to the alleged event? I mean the Creator of the Universe, the Word Incarnate, the Son of God is going to return again in His resurrected flesh, shouldn't we have at least one thousand or so witnesses available with clear testimony, for it should have been as obvious as "lightning flashing from East to West" After all, this seems like a pretty HUGE event to me and to all other believers!

Where is the real evidence for His real bodily return?

Jesus warned that there would come false christs and false sightings of His return, when He cautioned...

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not...Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." (Mat. 24:23,26-28)

His coming is described with a warning about those who would claim falsly that He had come in secret...in a small way, but Jesus Himself said that His bodily return will in fact be so pronounced as to be obvious to all available to witness it. Lightning from East to West is pretty visible and the vulture is a sure sign of a carcass nearby. He said that it would be so obvious that it will be unmistakable.

Where is the eveidence for this "unmistakeable" bodily return?

The truth is, there is no evidence, because He hasn't yet returned yet.

peace

160 posted on 01/15/2002 7:13:03 PM PST by woollyone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson