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Agree?: Rudy's public adultery & abortion advocacy disqualify him as a hero.
self ^ | 12-26-01

Posted on 12/26/2001 9:15:08 AM PST by Notwithstanding

Just want to see what people think.

Rudy has been a "good leader" in the wake of 9-11. Men with shoddy morals can be "good leaders" - but is a leader really good if he fails to show remorse for his evil acts (abortion support and public adultery)? Is a man really a good leader if he publicly advocates serial killing of preborn babies? If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras? If he never publicly expresses remorse about these two hugely important moral errors.


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To: Notwithstanding
lol...you're amusing.
41 posted on 12/26/2001 9:58:44 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny
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To: seamole
You: "So I suppose divorced people who remarry keep breaking that oath for you? Should divorce be criminalized?"

Me: You purposefully mix many different issues in your unthoughtful question.
1. No one has suggested that divorce be criminal.
2. Thoe who make lifelong permanent vows ("till death do us part", "through good times and bad, richer or poorer, sickness and health etc.") and later choose to divorce and remarry by definition continuously violate their oath to their first spouse. NB: the mariage vow does not have an early release clause.

42 posted on 12/26/2001 9:59:35 AM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: seamole
So I suppose divorced people who remarry keep breaking that oath for you? Should divorce be criminalized?

Seeing as how Rudy's a Catholic, the answer to your questions would be "Yes" and "Yes" as far as the Church is concerned.

43 posted on 12/26/2001 9:59:55 AM PST by oldvike
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To: Notwithstanding
Let he among us who is without sin be "Man of the Year."
44 posted on 12/26/2001 10:02:45 AM PST by abandon
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Notwithstanding
Sorry, but its pretty obvious and for that matter impossible to consider your argument out of the context ot Time naming Giuliani Person of the Year. Why else would you be bringing him up. And there are at least three threads now on the topic of Giuliani, his accomplishments, and naming him POTY. I would favor canonizing Rudy. Again I ask you, how does his stance on abortion, or the handling of his divorce disqualify him as a hero? You used the words 'disqualify him as a hero' in the title of his post.
46 posted on 12/26/2001 10:03:08 AM PST by finnman69
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To: Bommer
Please! This is soo ignorant that its laughable! Lets say the men on the flight that rushed the terrorists and kept the plane from crashing into the white house were pro-choice and all having affairs. Does that make them anyless leaders and heros?

Agreed 100%! Just because a person is a sinner does not mean they don't have the potential for unbelievable good!

47 posted on 12/26/2001 10:03:44 AM PST by oldvike
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To: oldvike
Lets say the men on the flight that rushed the terrorists and kept the plane from crashing into the white house were pro-choice and all having affairs.

Agreed. I believe one of the flight 93 heros was a very out of the closet homosexual. Is he any less of a hero because of that?

48 posted on 12/26/2001 10:05:30 AM PST by finnman69
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To: Notwithstanding
9/11 gave Giuliani - a creep who cheated on two wives in the finest Billklinton style - the chance to go out a hero.

Instead, Giuliani tried to illegally stay on as mayor (and lose his image in the city's inevitable economic mess).

He should just marry Judith Nathan, be faithful to her and live happily ever after - and shut up.

49 posted on 12/26/2001 10:09:53 AM PST by glc1173@aol.com
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator

To: finnman69
Time's POTY does not = hero; you brought it up - I never even mentioned it except in response to your false accusation.

Hero's are people we hold out as exceptional people whom we want other's to be emulate.

Since his public notoriety inlcudes very strong abortion support and very public adultery, he is not one to hold out for emulation.

I agree that Rudy ought to have been in the running for POTY, but since Bush is actually a true hero without the huge morality problems AND he has been such an astounding leader in the wake of 9-11, he desrved POTY both as a newsmaker and a hero through and through. (While I am disappointed in his stem cell decision, I will acknowledge the issue on which he had to decide regarding stem cells was not so black and white as abortion and adultery are).

51 posted on 12/26/2001 10:11:06 AM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: Notwithstanding
Very good humor. See my post on another thread. I equated Time POY with hero only because I read the whole POY article today (man, was it long).

I think Rudy has acted heroically in his official life since the planes hit the WTC on 09-11.

From dictionary.com, for "hero":

1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Rudy fits enough of #2 or #3 to qualify as a hero. Whether he's a role model is a different story. He probably should be considered a role model for crisis managers of the future. He certainly appears not to be when it comes to having one's personal act together.

52 posted on 12/26/2001 10:11:31 AM PST by litany_of_lies
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To: wingnuts'nbolts
What I love most about born again Christains is the public display of the rigid judgementalism that Jesus' message sends.

I believe Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged yourselves.

53 posted on 12/26/2001 10:12:11 AM PST by NC Conservative
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To: Notwithstanding
God must be comforted knowing you are here doing his judging for him and would appear to be without sin youself. I am beside myself with envy, (another sin).

I have broken a self imposed rule, NEVER reply on threads consumed with self important opinion on what God expects from us.

54 posted on 12/26/2001 10:13:00 AM PST by wingnuts'nbolts
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: Notwithstanding
I hardly think Rudy is the best that can be found!
I'd go for Scott Beamer, any day.
56 posted on 12/26/2001 10:19:55 AM PST by mickie
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To: Notwithstanding
What would you say about Martin Luther?
57 posted on 12/26/2001 10:22:38 AM PST by TopQuark
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To: litany_of_lies; Saundra Duffy
I am not noted for my subtlety either in real life or in virtual FR life. By now, does any FReeper really expect subtlety from Notwithstanding?

I knew I could get a good discussion going though. I hate it when people tiptoe around the meat of an issue or topic. Thus my ever-provocative titles and postings.

To tell the truth, it all comes down to the fate of the babies for me - those who cheat the babies out of their right to life will be cut slack by me only if they change their position. Until then I will ensure all pro-aborts have the blood of the babes in their minds and on their hands. One's own sense of guilt is a gift from God! It can be a work of charity to help people get in touch with that sense of guilt so they might feel the urge to get right with their Maker. But most people hate guilt because it is so inconvenient - why, it might even convince one to chang one's ways! C'est la vie.

58 posted on 12/26/2001 10:22:47 AM PST by Notwithstanding
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To: Notwithstanding
Promoting the slaughter of unborn children and committing adultery is not the mark of a good leader.

I long for the day when adultery, sodomy, fornication, and promoting immorality return to being captial offenses. Add attempting to get or adding in an abortion as well.

59 posted on 12/26/2001 10:23:11 AM PST by FF578
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To: wingnuts'nbolts
Y'know, the "judge not" quote from Jesus has to do with making a judgment as to whether a person will achieve eternal salvation or not, PERIOD. When Jesus said it, a prostitute was on the verge of being stoned to death. The crowd was preventing from enacting a permanent judgment that this woman deserved to die (and presumably suffer the wrath of God).

This does not prevent us from judging that an extramarital affair is wrong, and that a person is committing sin by being in the affair. I don't have to be sin-free to make that judgment, and I, like others, am far from it.

The expansion of the "judge not" warning from Jesus into "don't ever judge anyone for anything they ever do anywhere" is probably the most clever twisting of the Word of God ever perpetrated. It is the favorite canard of the pagan and secular left used against the religious right. Among other things, it enables sex ed to get a free pass into the classroom (don't judge unmarried kids who fornicate, just give them the tools to supposedly prevent bad consequences) and values to be kept out (we can't talk about right or wrong here, that would be making judgments, and we sure can't do that). The list goes on and on.

60 posted on 12/26/2001 10:24:26 AM PST by litany_of_lies
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