Posted on 12/24/2001 8:50:21 PM PST by Bobby777
what ever your views are FReep this poll!!! let's keep this thing bumped ... the score is terrible ... c'mon Christians ... it's on the left ... a little bit down ...
1b Every detail is true when translated, interpreted and understood correctly.
I'm a seminary student from an evangelical (dare I say "fundamentalist") background, and the thing most evangelicals don't realize about the Bible is it was written in a normal (ancient and foreign) language--not technical, theological language. Jesus Himself used exaggeration and hyperbola--as does God throughout the Old Testament... Also not being ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek speakers, we are only looking at approximations of what was originally inspired and written...
Once you go to option "2" however, you open the door for accepting anything from 99% or 1%--since now you have to figure out what is true and what is myth...
An old word used in the middle ages referring to God is apropos here: We apprehend God, and the Bible, we do not, (nor can we ever) fully comprehend God, or the Bible...
The classical Christian view of the scriptures is that they are INSPIRED not DICTATED. Moslems believe the Koran was dictated--which is why dedicated Moslems always learn Arabic--its "Allah's language" after all. Inspiration is a more flexible and complex word though... With inspiration we have set of books in the Bible which are fully from God, but also fully a work of men too--similar to Jesus himself--fully God but fully man. The trouble comes in trying to interpret and understand just as God would have us--which classical Christianity has always held is impossible without the present help of the Holy Spirit. This accounts for why the Bible is such a mystery to those who don't believe in Christ--and still mysterious, even for those of us who do...
Genesis 5 1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man."
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Here's what my Bible says:
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why did you quote this verse, you think I am from the devil? I love how you literalists have a verse somewhere to condemn us all!
I have a natural tendency to rebel against domination.
Well the inability to allow God to have dominion over you could be a problem
If you had taken my statement in context you would know I was referring to domination by the church. Since I am God's creation, God already has dominion over me. Why should I submit to men?
If the Bible is not Divinely Inspired, then it’s accuracy must be some what skeptical to say the least.
English............Strong's....Greek
Who..................[3739].......hos
is.......................[2076].......esti
the image...........[1504].......eikon
of the invisible....[517].........aoratos
God,..................[2316].......theos
the firstborn........[4416].......prototokos....
of every............[3956].......pas
creature:.............[2937].......ktisis
In Strongs Greek Dictionary #3956, pas; includ. all the forms of declension;; appar. a prim. word. all,any,every,the whole:-
It is used as "the whole" in Eph 4:16 and as "of every" in 1st Cr 11:3,Acts 2:5,Luke 5:17,Math 13:47,Phm 1:6,Rev 5:9 and Rev 18:2.
It is used as "all" hundreds of times.
I did not find "pas "Strongs # 3956, used as over or before in the entire concordance. In the 26 translations book, two paraphrase it, but none say "over all creation". I found that only NKJV(per BkueletterBible.org) uses "over all creation".
SpookBrat, you stated..."I read several different Biblical translations and several said “over all creation”, but the KJV says “of all creation”.
" spookBrat, which bible translations did you read, that used "over all creation"?
Strong's Greek Dictionary #2937 ktisis: = original formation: building,creation,creature,ordinance.
Vines dictionary = primarily "the act of creating," or "the creative act in process," has this meaning in Rom 1:20; Gal 6:15.
Like the English word "creation," it also signifies the product of the "creative" act, the "creature," as in Mar 16:15, RV; Rom 1:25; 8:19; Col 1:15 etc.; in Hbr 9:11, AV, "building."
I will be back, I have came across a lot more to look into. Cheers:^)
God The Father and God The Son...the First and Second Persons of The Holy Trinity ~ OR ~ Trunity of The GOD HEAD, the word in the Original Hebrew Language: ECHAD! "
Where did you get the idea I said they were?
You also stated...."YOU cannot Issolate Scriptures, Twist them to YOUR liking... in other words: You cannot take Holy Scripture out of Context in order to Prove "YOUR" Point or Agenda. "
Can you answer the questions I asked? Give me an example of what you are talking about. I assume you read the whole thread. You wouldn't take anything out of context, would you?
Cheers.
When Jesus spoke He spoke,He spoke to all of us..we all are born bearing the image of Satan because of the fall.I did not directed that at you specifically.
It is because of that sin we all need a Savior.
HEY!!!!!! Keep your powder dry. What websites would that be? I don't know what you are talking about.
DO YOU?
This is the only post I made to Texas Gal. Do you see any URL's? You will not discuss, so please refrain from posting anything to me until you suceed in sending me an apology that I will accept.
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To: Texas Gal
I liked your response. It is very good. As you pointed out the scriptures cited (" does not contradict the scripture you mentioned, but it illustrates the idea that death in the Bible does not mean the soul ceases to exist (and I use KJV as well)".
Depends on who does the deed.
In KJV Matthew 10:28.... And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
With exception of John 1:1:1,(let us save this for another time.)Your discussion on Jesus being God refers to him being "God's Son" and doing all the creating for God.
However it does not contradict the statement in Colossians 1:15. Jesus was the first creature created and he created the rest. Answers your response.
My real question here is about the validity of the statement in Colossians 1:15. Does it say that Jesus is "of creation" or not.
Cheers:^)
100 posted on 12/25/01 6:03 PM Pacific by eazdzit
I am hung up on Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, and Proverbs 8:22-25.
I am working on Col 1:15 right now. 28 out of 30 Bibles are in agreement in translating to one of the definitions for Strongs Greek Dictionary #3956. Do you know if the greek is in contention on this verse?
See post #244.
Cheers:^)
I am working on Col 1:15 right now. 28 out of 30 Bibles are in agreement in translating to one of the definitions for Strongs Greek Dictionary #3956. See post #244.
Do you know if the greek is in contention on this verse?
Cheers:^)
Thankfully there is a God, and that He has already decided what constitutes a sentient being capable of sustainingt a soul. Neither Creationists nor Evolutionists have a "lock" on salvation purely from these viewpoints...it is NOT a point of salvation (and I defy anyone to show me a passage in Scripture which states that I must believe one way or another to gain admittance to the Kingdom).
I am a scientist. I believe that evolution is the closest, best theory we have to date, and I don't give a rat's rump at what point God decided to give our ancestors a soul - the point is that at some point He did. I also believe that most of the Bible has been preserved intact, although with some loss of character and humor. Furthermore, I know that when I die, I'm going to Heaven...because I have done (through Grace) the one thing necessary for Salvation: I believe utterly that Jesus died for my sins.
He is the beginning. As ajrch< is sometimes made use of among the Greeks to denote the end, to which all things bear a relation, we might understand it as meaning, that Christ is in this sense (ajrch<) the end. I prefer, however, to explain Paul's words thus -- that he is the beginning, because he is the first-born from the dead; for in the resurrection there is a restoration of all things, and in this manner the commencement of the second and new creation, for the former had fallen to pieces in the ruin of the first man. As, then, Christ in rising again had made a commencement of the kingdom of God, he is on good grounds called the beginning; for then do we truly begin to have a being in the sight of God, when we are renewed, so as to be new creatures. He is called the first-begotten from the dead, not merely because he was the first that rose again, but because he has also restored life to others, as he is elsewhere called the first-fruits of those that rise again. (1 Corinthians. 15:20.)
That he may in all things. From this he concludes, that supremacy belongs to him in all things. For if he is the Author and Restorer of all things, it is manifest that this honor is justly due to him. At the same time the phrase in omnibus (in all things) may be taken in two ways -- either over all creatures, or, in everything. This, however, is of no great importance, for the simple meaning is, that all things are subjected to his sway.
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John Wesley
18. And - From the whole he now descends to the most eminent part, the church. He is the head of the church - Universal; the supreme and only head both of influence and of government to the whole body of believers. Who is - The repetition of the expression { Colossians i, 15} points out the entrance on a new paragraph. The beginning - Absolutely, the Eternal. The first begotten from the dead - From whose resurrection flows all the life, spiritual and eternal, of all his brethren. That in all things - Whether of nature or grace. He might have the pre-eminence - Who can sound this depth?
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Geneva study bible
1:18 8 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the l firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. (8) Having gloriously declared the excellent dignity of the person of Christ, he describes his office and function, that is, that he is the same to the Church as the head is to the body, that is to say, the prince and governor of it, and the very beginning of true life. And as he rose first from death, he is the author of eternal life, so that he is above all, in whom alone there is most plentiful abundance of all good things, which is poured out upon the Church. (l) Who so rose again that he should die no more, and who raises others from death to life by his power.
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Gills commentary
Verse 18. And he is the head of the body, the church,.... By "the church" is meant, not any particular congregated church, as the church at Colosse, or Corinth, or any other; but the whole election of grace, the general assembly and church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven in the Lamb's book of life; the church which Christ has given himself for, and has purchased with his blood, and builds on himself the rock, and will, at last, present to himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; this is compared to an human body, and therefore called "the body"; which is but one, consisting of many members in union with each other, set in their proper places in just symmetry and proportion to each other, and subservient to one another, and are neither more nor fewer; see 1 Corinthians 12:12, &c. and of this body, the church, Christ is "the head"; he was the representative head of this body of elect men from all eternity, and in time; he is a political head of them, or in such sense an head unto them, as a king is to his subjects; he reigns in them by his Spirit and grace, and rules them by wholesome laws of his own enacting, and which he inscribes on their hearts, and he protects and defends them by his power; he is an economical head, or in such sense an head of them, as the husband is the head of the wife, and parents and masters are the heads of their families, he standing in all these relations to them; and he is to them what a natural head is to an human body; of all which See Gill on "1Co 11:3." The Messiah is called one head, in Hosea 1:11; which Jarchi explains by David their king, and Kimchi on the place says, this is the King Messiah:
who is the beginning; which either denotes the eternity of Christ, who was not only in the beginning, and was set up from the beginning, from everlasting, but is also the beginning and the end; and who is, indeed, without beginning of days, or end of life: or his dominion; he is the principality, as the word may be rendered; he is the principality of principalities, the head of all principality and power, the angels; he is the Prince of the kings of the earth; he is King of saints; the kingdom of nature and providence is his, and the government of his people in a special manner is on his shoulders: or this may design his being the first cause of all things; he is the beginning of the creation of God; the efficient cause of all created beings; he is the beginning of the church, of which he is the head; as Eve was from Adam, so is the church from Christ; it is a body of his preparing, and a temple of his building, and where he sits as a priest on his throne, and has the government of it: the second number, wisdom, in the cabalistic tree of the Jews, is called "the beginning" {n}, as is the Logos, or Word, by Philo the Jew {o}:
the firstborn from the dead; the first that rose from the dead by his own power, and to an immortal life; for, though others were raised before him, and by him, yet not to a state of immortality; the path of life, to an immortal life, was first shown to him as man; and who also is the firstfruits of them that sleep, and so the pledge and earnest of the future resurrection of the saints; and is both the efficient and exemplary cause of it; the resurrection of the dead will be by him as God, and according to his own, as man: that in all [things] he might have the pre-eminence; or might be the first and chief over all persons, angels, and men; having a superior nature, name, and place, than the former, and being the firstborn among many brethren designed by the latter: and in all things he is the first, and has the precedence and primacy; in sonship, no one is a Son in the sense he is; in election, he was chosen first, and his people in him; in the covenant, he is the surety, Mediator, and messenger of it, he is that itself; in his human nature, he is fairer than the children of men; in redemption, he was alone, and wrought it out himself; in life, he exceeded all others in purity, in doctrine, and miracles; and in dying he conquered death, and rose first from it; in short, he died, revived, and rose again, that he might be Lord both of dead and living; and he ought to have the pre-eminence and first place in the affections of our hearts, in the contemplations of our minds, in the desires of our souls, and in the highest praises of our lips. {n} Cabala denudata, par. 2. p. 7. & Lex. Cabal. p. 679, 681. {o} Philo de Conf. ling. p. 341.
I have read a lot of your posts. It is obvious you are comfortable with yourself and your religion.
I hope you are having a happy holiday season, and may God bless you and yours.
Cheers:^)
Those excerpts are from mainstream commentaries,from two different traditions. I just did not want the JW preversion of Scripture to go without an educated studied mainstream response..
Sometimes we are told that there is no verse in the New Testament that says "Jesus is God," with the implication that there no straightforward claim to His divinity to be found in its pages. Such, however, is not the case. For instance, in the following passages the deity of Christ is either explicitly asserted or strongly implied.
In Titus 2:13, Paul speaks of believers "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Peter opens his second epistle greeting "those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).
Luke records Paul's words to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:28 where he reminds them that they are overseers of "the church of God which he purchased with His own blood." Such a statement makes no sense unless we accept the full force of the doctrine of the incarnation: Christ was God in the flesh, therefore we may speak of God shedding His own blood. John testifies to Jesus (whom he calls the Word) in the foreword to his Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). John goes on to say that Jesus, the Word, is "the only begotten from the Father" (John 1:14) and then utters the astounding claim that "no man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:18). Thus John not only asserts Christ's deity, but also his sole ability to reveal the Father to the world. It is thus not surprising that Thomas confesses Jesus to be "My Lord and My God" in John 20:28. The author of Hebrews identifies Jesus, the Son as the person about whom the Psalmist (Psalm 45:6) said: "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8). James, the brother of our Lord identifies himself as Jesus' "bond-servant" (James 1:1) and refers to His brother as "the glory" in James 2:1, neither of which designations is typical of siblings or reverent Jewish believers, but both of which speak volumes about his perception of the divine nature of Christ.
Such passages could be multiplied (e.g., Matthew 1:23, John 17:3, Acts 2:17 & 33, Colossians 2:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, 1 Timothy 1:17, and 1 John 5:20), but the ones we have just reviewed establish the teaching of Jesus' divinity from Paul, Peter, Luke, John, Thomas, the author of Hebrews, and James -- a representative selection of apostles and their understudies. All of these unambiguously and unanimously testify to the deity of our Lord.
Christ's divinity is set forth in Scripture in numerous other places and in a variety of other ways as well. First, the attributes of the one, true God of Israel are ascribed freely and without apology to Jesus by the writers of the New Testament. No first-century Jew could have done so without fully understanding the radical theological significance of such an ascription.
The author of Hebrews applies Psalm 102:25-26, which asserts the eternality of God, to Christ in Hebrews 1:11-12 ("you are the same, and your years will not come to an end"), and as we have already seen John declares the Word's eternity in the prologue to his Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word." Our Lord's immutability (or unchangeableness) is asserted in Hebrews 13:8 where we are told that Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Jesus Himself claims the attribute of omnipresence in the Great Commission of Matthew 28:20. "I am with you always," He says. This is only possible if He is possessed of what theologians call "immensity" -- an attribute of the God of Israel alone. Jesus' omniscience is regularly stressed in the Gospel records, as for instance John's astounding declarations that Jesus "knew all men" and "knew what was in man" (John 2:24-25) or Luke's almost incidental comment that Jesus knew what the Pharisees were thinking (Luke 6:8). The New Testament also indicates that Christ possesses the divine attribute of sovereignty. Jesus Himself claims unlimited divine authority when he announces "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18) and Paul reiterates the point when he has says: "in [Christ] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form . . . and he is the head over all rule and authority" (Colossians 2:9-10). To claim that a person is eternal, immutable, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, is to claim that person to be divine -- which is precisely what the New Testament does of Christ.
A second way in which the Scriptures testify to Christ's deity is that the great Old Testament names of God are applied to Him. Over and over the divine names of Israel's God are taken up by Christ or employed by His disciples in reference to Him.
For instance, the great Old Testament covenantal name of God, Yahweh or Jehovah, which is translated Lord (kurios) in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) nigh unto seven thousand times is applied in its fullest sense to Christ on numerous occasions. Paul indicates that the fundamental confession of a Christian is "Jesus is Lord" (Romans 10:9). He considers such a profession necessary for salvation, and evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life (1 Corinthians 12:3).
Furthermore, he indicates that there will come a day when the whole world will confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord" (Philippians 2:11). This declaration of Christ's divine lordship is perhaps the earliest confession of the Church, and in light of the Old Testament significance of the term and the early Christian's steadfast defense of Christ's unique lordship, it is apparent that "Lord" is far more than a polite title of address or mere acknowledgment that He is our master. We may add that New Testament writers routinely apply Old Testament "Lord" passages to Jesus (e.g., John 12:41 says that Isaiah's vision was of Christ on the throne in Isaiah 6:10, see also Romans 8:34, Acts 2:34, and 1 Peter 3:22). We may mention in passing that Jesus refers to Himself with the exalted "I AM" formula repeatedly in the Gospel of John (John 8:58, cf., 6:35, 8:12,24, 11:25, 14:6, and 18:5-8), and calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" in Revelation 22:13. All these divine names (and there are dozens of other examples we could mention), constitute an argument of significant force indicative of the New Testament's view of the deity of our Lord.
What exactly is it? Is it because I am suggesting that the Bible says Jesus is firstborn of all creation?
While we are at it I have noticed that it also calls him the beginning of the creation of God.
KJV Revelation 3:14
14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Are these scriptures improperly translated?
Cheers:^)
Source:ROBERTSON'S WORD STUDIES
15. The image (eikwn). See on Apoc. xiii. 14. For the Logos (Word) underlying the passage, see on John i. 1. Image is more than likeness which may be superficial and incidental. It implies a prototype, and embodies the essential verity of its prototype. Compare in the form of God, Philip. ii. 6 (note), and the effulgence of the Father's glory, Heb. i. 3. Also 1 John i. 1.
Of the invisible God (tou Qeou tou aoratou). Lit., of the God, the invisible. Thus is brought out the idea of manifestation which lies in image. See on Apoc. xiii. 14.
The first born of every creature (prwtotokov pashv ktisewv). Rev., the first-born of all creation. For first-born, see on Apoc. i. 5; for creation, on 2 Cor. v. 17. As image points to revelation, so first-born points to eternal preexistence. Even the Rev. is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: in Him were all things created. The true sense is, born before the creation. Compare before all things, ver. 17. This fact of priority implies sovereignty. He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are unto (eiv) Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Psalm lxxxix. 27; Heb. i. 2.
Source Vincents Word study of the NT
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