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Is December 25th Special?
marbren

Posted on 12/20/2001 2:53:57 PM PST by marbren

December 25th has traditionally been celebrated as Jesus’ birthday. When you start to examine this closer you find that a September date makes more sense for the actual birthday. December 25th may be special however. I am looking for answers to a few questions. Is December 25th related to Kislev 25 ( the first day of Hanukkah in the Jewish Calendar)?. There might be some neat analogies to the candle lighting and Jesus being the light of the world. Was Hanukkah celebrated around 10 BC ? If we project back our current calendar to the time of Christ’s birth do Kislev 25 and December 25th ever fall on the same day? Was Jesus conceived on Kislev 25/ December 25th? Do the nine candles on the menorah have anything to do the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy? I am not trying to prove anything I was just hoping some of you may have some answers to these questions. God might be behind the December 25th date. This may also help the pro-life position of life beginning at conception. God became man when Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: archaeoastronomy; godsgravesglyphs; johanneskepler; starofbethlehem; staroftheeast
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1 posted on 12/20/2001 2:53:57 PM PST by marbren
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To: marbren
You're not new here. We have been over this so many times I have lost track. I must take a pass on the discussion this time around.
2 posted on 12/20/2001 2:59:08 PM PST by onyx
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To: marbren
I just posted something along the same lines here, but not quite the same thing. A Christmas Birthday
3 posted on 12/20/2001 3:00:55 PM PST by Zorobabel
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To: marbren
I think you have the right idea, but the wrong celebration. The September date makes sense for Y'shua to have been born on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths. (You can look it up in Leviticus 23) This holiday is to serve as a reminder of when the Israelites lived in tents in the wilderness and G-d dwelt among them. Makes sense to me that G-d would choose this festival to come and dwell among His people.
4 posted on 12/20/2001 3:02:45 PM PST by Liberty Belle
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: McNoggin
Exactly. December 25th is the date of the Roman Saturnalia, which included giving gifts to friends and family members. If I recall correctly, it was also the date for Mithras' birth. Mithras was a minor Persian/Zoroastrian deity that became the center of a mystery cult that was extremely popular throughout the Empire (from Britian all the way to Egypt and everywhere in between) in the second and third centuries and threatened to eclipse Christianity.
6 posted on 12/20/2001 3:10:47 PM PST by TheAngryClam
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To: marbren
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
7 posted on 12/20/2001 3:12:43 PM PST by j.havenfarm
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To: marbren
9 candles? Man, I gotta see one of those....
8 posted on 12/20/2001 3:14:07 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: anniegetyourgun
Why? All Chanuka menorahs have 9 candles...one for each day and the "shamash" or servant candle used to light the others.
9 posted on 12/20/2001 3:21:41 PM PST by Liberty Belle
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To: Liberty Belle
I thought that 9 was the case for in the original temples - all menorah were not to replacate that and were subsequently only 7 from then to today? Maybe I have that backwards.


10 posted on 12/20/2001 3:27:33 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: marbren
December 25th, September 3rd, April 44th. It doesn't matter. We celebrate the fact that He was born, that He lived, and that He died for all our sins.
11 posted on 12/20/2001 3:45:09 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Sheesh, thank you for that. I swear there must be a full moon, I don't care if it looks like it or not.
12 posted on 12/20/2001 3:47:59 PM PST by riley1992
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To: marbren
This is covered in the history books. Mithras, Sol Ivictus, Constintine, etc.
13 posted on 12/20/2001 3:49:28 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: marbren
We'll probably never know when the actual calendar date was until we get to ask Him face to face. For me, for now, December 25th serves the purpose for me to celebrate the birth of my Savior, who happens to be the only religious icon in the world who scares liberals. Ever pondered why that is?

MM

14 posted on 12/20/2001 3:52:35 PM PST by MississippiMan
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To: riley1992
Happy to be of help :)
15 posted on 12/20/2001 4:04:51 PM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: marbren
Star of Bethlehem presentation by Dr. Rick Larson at Texas A&M University.

I saw the presentation on Dec 5th and I'm going back to tape it on Dec 21. It was wonderful and I will never look at Christmas or Easter the same, ever again! See for yourself.

16 posted on 12/20/2001 4:08:46 PM PST by texgal
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To: texgal
tried to post link, it worked in the preview but didn't after the post.
17 posted on 12/20/2001 4:11:18 PM PST by texgal
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To: texgal
Let me try this again!! Star of Bethlehem presentation by Dr. Rick Larson
18 posted on 12/20/2001 4:13:35 PM PST by texgal
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To: marbren
He was conceived on December 25(and so He began to dwell with us on Earth while he was in Mary's womb)but He wasnt actually born until September 29.
19 posted on 12/20/2001 4:18:32 PM PST by fiftymegaton
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To: marbren; Ben Ficklin;McNoggin; TheAngryClam
The topic of Elagabalus, Sol Invictus, Mithras and 25 December came of up in an ancient numismatic mailing list I belonged to. I wrote the following little essay regarding the history of the subject:

*****************************************
I am new to the list and I would like to get some information on the ancient religion adopted by the Roman emperor commonly called Elagabalus. I am especially interested in the role of the Stone of Emesa in the religion, if any. My interest was piqued by viewing an antoninianus from this reign with the Stone of Emesa reverse.
*****************************************
I have rather vague memories of all this and can't find my notes, but E. seems to have conflated the Roman Sol Invictus cult with a local sun-god cult of which he had been a priest. About 10 years ago a book was published by Brill called, if I remember rightly, _The Cult of Sol Invictus_ but as I can't locate it in my bibliography and can't remember the author.... Perhaps some-one else can come up with more details. Good luck, X

**************************************

The book mentioned by Prof. X is Halsberghe, G.H. 1972. The Cult of Sol Invictus. Leiden: E.J. Brill.

"Baal" was the name given to Phoenician-Syrian sky and sun gods. The word meant "lord" or "master". Originally, each town in Phoenicia had it's own baal. The Baal of Emesa in Syria was also called Sol Invictus El Gabal, Sol Invictus Elagabal, El Gabal or Elagabalus.

During this time in the Roman Empire, the gods of one part of the Empire would be identified with gods from other parts of the Empire. The worship of Sol Invictus was of Syrian origin. However, the identification with Apollo and the Greek sun god Helios helped the westward spread of the worship of Eastern sun gods. The spread of the Sol Invictus cult in the Empire led to the decline of the original Roman sun god, Sol Indiges.

Sol Invictus was also identified with, but not the same as, Mithras. Mithras was a god of light and truth of Indo-Iranian origin whose cult promised immortality, was restricted to men and was popular with well-to-do Roman merchants and soldiers throughout the Empire. Early Christian writers recorded that this cult practiced a form of baptism and a ceremonial meal and complained that the cult was stealing Christian ideas. Mithratic art shows Sol kneeling before Mithras, sharing a sacred meal and ascending to heaven with him in a chariot. In some inscriptions, the two are linked and addressed as Sol Invictus Mithras.

At Emesa, the priesthood of Sol Invictus Elagabal was hereditary and Julia Domna, the wife of Emperor Septimius Severus, was born into to that family of hereditary priests. After the death of Caracalla and Julia Domna, Julia Maesa, the sister of Domna, schemed and succeeded in having her grandson, Varius Avitus Bassianus, replace Macrinus as Emperor. At the time, Bassianus was the 14 year old hereditary priest of Sol Invictus Elagabal and he probably considered himself to be the reincarnated god El Gabal.

The new Emperor was almost totally preoccupied with his religious duties ( not to mention sex) and, for a short period made "deus invictus Sol Elagabulus" the chief diety of Rome.

At the temple of Emesa, there was a sacred conical black Stone (baetyl), presumably a meteorite, which was associated with the phallus of El Gabal himself and which was the focal point of the faith. The new Emperor had the stone transported to Rome. The god's bird was an eagle (as with Jupiter). Unlike the dignified rituals of traditional Roman religion and the solemn, private and male-only rituals of Mithraism popular with Roman officers and wealthy merchants, the rites of El Gabal were public, very ostentatious and included women, dancing, flutes, cymbals, glittering costumes, and animal sacrifices galore. At Rome, Senators were forced to sit and witness the daily spectacles conducted by the Emperor and high government officials dressed in the garish costumes were forced to participate in the ceremonies. Although popular with the lower classes, the more conservative Romans considered all this very "foreign", "undignified" and "un-Roman".

Elagabulus had two temples built to his god, the first one on the Palatine and the other in the outskirts of Rome. At the Palatine temple, the Emperor enshrined the sacred Stone of Emesa along with the Carthaginian goddess Dea Caelestis as it's "bride". Dea Caelestis had been popularized by Septimius Severus who was of North African origin. Once a year, a midsummer religious procession was held during which the Stone of Emesa, shaded by parasols and accompanied by an eagle was carried on a gold and gem encrusted chariot led by Elagabulus walking backwards in reverence. These are the processions commemorated on some of his coins.

Eventually, the Roman soldiers revolted against their peculiar young Emperor. Elagabulus was murdered, stuffed down a sewer and ended up "sleeping with the fishes" at the bottom of the Tiber. However, the influence of the various Sol Invictus cults still lives on. Following the old adage, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", between 354 and 360 A.D., the Christian Church changed the date of celebration of Christ's birth from the day of Epiphany on January 6 to December 25 (midwinter solstice in the Julian calender) which was still being gleefully celebrated by the population as the birthday of Sol Invictus.

20 posted on 12/20/2001 4:22:45 PM PST by Polybius
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