Is December 25th Special?

marbren

[marbren]

December 25th has traditionally been celebrated as Jesus’ birthday. When you start to examine this closer you find that a September date makes more sense for the actual birthday. December 25th may be special however. I am looking for answers to a few questions. Is December 25th related to Kislev 25 ( the first day of Hanukkah in the Jewish Calendar)?. There might be some neat analogies to the candle lighting and Jesus being the light of the world. Was Hanukkah celebrated around 10 BC ? If we project back our current calendar to the time of Christ’s birth do Kislev 25 and December 25th ever fall on the same day? Was Jesus conceived on Kislev 25/ December 25th? Do the nine candles on the menorah have anything to do the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy? I am not trying to prove anything I was just hoping some of you may have some answers to these questions. God might be behind the December 25th date. This may also help the pro-life position of life beginning at conception. God became man when Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Is December 25th Special?

FAST OF TEVET 10 (10 Tevet) - Commemorates the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar (586 B.C.E.). This siege was the prelude to the destruction of the First Temple and the Babylonian exile of the Jewish people.

[out_of_control]

Here's an interesting analysis from a commentary on Revelation 12 by David Chilton.

"It is interesting that by pursuing several lines of very convincing evidence, Prof. Ernest Martin carefully and painstakingly narrows down the probable date of Christ’s birth to sometime in September, 3 B.C. Martin then adds the icing to the cake: “In the period of Christ’s birth, the Sun entered the head-position of the Woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the Apostle John saw the scene when the Sun ‘clothes’ or ‘adorns’ the Woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied of the Woman — between the neck and knees. (The sun could hardly be said to ‘clothe’ the Woman if it were situated in her face or near her feet.) “The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to ‘clothe’ this celestial Woman (to be mid-bodied) is when it was located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This ‘clothing’ of the Woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20-degree spread could indicate the general time when Christ was born. In 3 B. C., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15.

If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Christ with the period when the Sun is mid-bodied to the Woman, then Christ would have had to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi (who were astrologers), this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born — especially if he were to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born of a virgin. . . . “But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Christ’s birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision could pinpoint the nativity to within a day – perhaps to an hour period or less.

This may seem absurd, but it is entirely possible. “The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located ‘under her feet.’ What does the word ‘under’ signify in this case? Does it mean the Woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Christ this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7-degree arc. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B. C., these two factors came to precise agreement for less than two hours, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, on September 11. The relationship began about 6:15 P.M. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 P.M. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that this could have taken place.”

An added bonus: Sundown on September 11, 3 B. C., was the beginning of Tishri 1 in the Jewish calendar – Rosh Hashanah, the Day of Trumpets! Martin summarizes: “The central theme of the Day of Trumpets is clearly that of enthronement of the great King of kings. This was the general understanding of the day in early Judaism – and it certainly is that of the New Testament. In Revelation 11:15 the seventh angel sounds his ‘last trump’ and the kingdoms of this world become those of Christ. This happens at a time when a woman is seen in heaven with twelve stars around her head and the Sun mid-bodied to her, with the Moon under her feet. This is clearly a New Moon scene for the Day of Trumpets.”"

Chilton/Martin goes on to say that Dec. 25th came into play because that is when Jupiter (the Messianic Star) was over Bethlehem 12/25 2 BC about the time the Magi visited the Messiah.

[marbren]

Did Mary celebrate Hanukkah ?

[out_of_control]

I don't know... however, Christians did not separate from Judaism till sometime after the Jewish war. So, it wouldn't surprise me if she did.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Given the information in Luke 1, it is likely Yashua was conceived on Dec 24/25, and born on the Feast of Tabernacles. It's unlikely that I will be the first to bring it up.

[BenF]

December 25th has traditionally been celebrated as Jesus’ birthday. When you start to examine this closer you find that a September date makes more sense for the actual birthday.

Don't forget the change in calendars to the Gregorian in the 1400's. That change was accompanied by a September in which there were only 17 days.

December 25th may be special however. I am looking for answers to a few questions. Is December 25th related to Kislev 25 ( the first day of Hanukkah in the Jewish Calendar)?.

No.

There might be some neat analogies to the candle lighting and Jesus being the light of the world. Was Hanukkah celebrated around 10 BC ?

The Jewish Revolt began about 200 years before the alleged birth of Jesus.

If we project back our current calendar to the time of Christ’s birth do Kislev 25 and December 25th ever fall on the same day?

They might, but again you're forgetting the conversion of calendars.

Was Jesus conceived on Kislev 25/ December 25th? Do the nine candles on the menorah have anything to do the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy?

Not even remotely connected.

[BenF]

The September date makes sense for Y'shua to have been born on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths.

Also, assuming the tales of Jesus birth are somewhat accurate, there is no way for him to have been born in December. Remember - no room in the inn? How was that possible in December in Bethlehem? What could have created a condition where there was no room in the inn? If it was in September in Jerusalem, then you're right. Jews would have had to go to Jerusalem for the Sukkot festival. But then, what would have created a similar situation in Bethlehem?

[BenF]

Maybe I have that backwards.

Yes.

[BenF]

That's only for this year.

[out_of_control]

I find it amazing that no one caught the date that E. Martin believes is the birthday of the Messiah...

SEPTEMBER 11, 3 B.C.

[AppyPappy]

A census was called. That could happen any time.

[BenF]

Did Mary celebrate Hanukkah ?

Assuming the stories are correct, she should have.

An interesting side note to Chanukah and Christmas. The Jewish revolt was led by Mattisyahu and his sons. They formed a dynasty - the Hashmonaim. It became more and more corrupt. A little less than 200 years after the revolt and the beginning of the dynasty, a slave rose up and slaughtered all the Hashmonaim except for one girl. He intended to marry her and thus legitimize his right to the throne. She committed suicide rather than marry him. The name of the slave? Herod.

[Utopia]

Don't forget the change in calendars to the Gregorian in the 1400's.

Sorry. the original calendar correction was in 1582. 13 days were dropped. The intent was to align the vernal equinox to the same date as celebrated by the Council of Nicea. Not all countries adopted the reform. England (America) did not adopt it until 1752.

I love calendars.

[David]

There are a number of misconceptions, not only in your post but also in the comments.

There are several hard limitations that guide our analysis of the actual date of birth of Jesus Christ. For one thing, we know he was born during the reign of Herod the Great--we also know that Herod died on March 14, 4 BC. The date of Herods death is a secular Roman historical proposition. For many years, the church relied on Josephius statement that Herod died on the night of the eclipse of March 14, 4 BC. Since then Ropman historical records have come to light that demonstrate the accuracy of that date--there was a political controversy that followed Herods death which was resolved by the Roman envoy to Syria--the envoy involved returned to Rome in the fall of 4 BC and never returned. Recent speculation that there might have been another eclipse later than 4 BC (there was but it was not visible as far north as Palestine) is irrevelant--the date of Herods death is now a date firmly fixed by secular history at March 14, 4 BC.

A second limitation is set out in Luke, in the story set forth in Luke 1:1-56. To those who say the actual date is irrelevant, I suggest you ought to study this scripture--all scripture is profitable for study and God gave us this story for a reason that becomes apparent when we study it.

The story is about John the Baptist's father, a priest named Zacharias. The priests served in the Temple on a regular schedule to the purpose of which schedule they were divided by King David in I Chronicles 24 into 24 sections. We now know from the Mishna, that the schedule of these sections has been faithfully kept and followed from the time of construction of the first Temple through today when the Jews are preparing for resumption of the sacrifical worship system.

Zacharias was a priest of the Abaijh section. There is available a computer program which shows the date of service of the Abaijh section through the history (about twice a year for a week).

In Luke 1:23, we learn that John was conceived when Zacharias went home immediately after his regular scheduled service in the Temple; six months later, Mary conceived Jesus (Luke 1:36). Thus we know that Jesus was born 15 months after the end of the Abaijh section during the reign of Herod the Great.

Problem with December 25, is that you can't line up 15 months with that date; you can't line up September either in any realistic time frame (probably 10 BC would work but that is way too early).

The realistic dates are May 6 BC and June 7 BC and there is non Biblical support for the 6 BC date.

God gave us this detail because he wanted us to know the correct dating and to be able to figure it out.

Praise the Lord.

[BenF]

A census was called. That could happen any time.

Not according to the Torah. A census usually occurs at a specific time of the year. That's not to say that some special census wasn't called, but it would not be in accordance with Jewish tradition. That makes an "unscheduled" census unlikely.

[BenF]

Thanks for the correction. Point was, the calendar was changed so what passes for Dec. 25 today could not possibly have been Dec 25 2001 years ago.

[AppyPappy]

The census was called by the ROMAN governor who was not Jewish.

[marbren]

I am familiar with the background of Hanukkah. The seven Jewish feasts all point to Jesus. Hanukkah is a little different. Did God ordain it? This was a main point of my questions. are Hanukkah and Dec 25th related?

[Thinkin' Gal]

Right. No turkey 'til sundown! :-)

2005, that'll be a good one!

[BenF]

Ah....