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Osama was probably killed in the saturation bombing in the initial strikes. The statement Bush made on October 11 was very puzzling, considering that he is man of his word, and that only a month earlier he said the elimination of terrorists and their network would take years to complete. Yet he laid it all on the line with his offer.

I have an idea how this was all militarily executed in the first strike, and why it took almost a month to commence, and I may post it after a while.

1 posted on 11/28/2001 4:13:44 PM PST by HighWheeler
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To: HighWheeler
I thought this was the desire some weeks back, too (to nail him and we'd just never find out, which is still possible) - however, my opinion changed in the last week or so. 1st because of the impressive fashion that we've waged this war it's now far better for us to nail 'em than not (whereas that was a different case than before, as you outline). At this point we should get 'em and that'll help weak-kneed coalition members gain some strength. Lastly, as far as him being dead at this point, I don't agree, because of the large number of witnesses around Jolalabad that had seen him in the prior week's time.
2 posted on 11/28/2001 4:24:23 PM PST by Steven W.
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To: HighWheeler
It's a reasonable argument, and you may be correct. I think some of the points are weak, however. I agree that Bush was confident that the Taliban would not hand over Bin Laden, but that could have been based on what was clear to everyone at the time--that the Taliban were not about to give up on that point. It wouldn't have been in character with what we had already seen of them. They had plenty of chances earlier, and they refused to do it.

Moreover, although some of the tribal leaders have been willing to switch allegiance at the drop of a hat, that isn't true of the real fanatics. They are still showing that they are willing to die for the cause.

I am more inclined to agree with your general evaluation. We have been assuming that Bush would want to produce Bin Laden's body, but as you say there may be advantages in having him simply disappear. If he is already dead, there are also advantages in not saying so until after the whole country has been mopped up. He is a useful bogie to placate weenie-whiny liberal newspersons with. In fact, although he did nothing about the problem, it was clinton who first made bin Laden infamous, demonizing him in the clintonoid media, as had earlier been done with Saddam. So Bush already had a liberal-certified liberal demon to deal with, and that made it awkward for the press to complain.

3 posted on 11/28/2001 4:30:06 PM PST by Cicero
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To: susangirl
Here you go.
6 posted on 11/28/2001 4:36:05 PM PST by HighWheeler
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To: HighWheeler
I believe I was the first on FR to call him "Elvis bin Laden." He will be seen in Somalia, which will then have the crap bombed out of it. Then the Philippines. And so on.
7 posted on 11/28/2001 4:36:11 PM PST by eno_
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE; Billie
Please review, thanks.
8 posted on 11/28/2001 4:38:35 PM PST by HighWheeler
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To: Travis McGee
What do you think?
10 posted on 11/28/2001 4:49:25 PM PST by walden
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To: HighWheeler
I agree with most of your evaluation, however the one problem you have is the interview with the Pakistani journalist on Nov 7 or thereabouts, with photo evidence. Could that have been a lie? Probably, but not likely.
11 posted on 11/28/2001 4:53:54 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: HighWheeler
I've been dying to ask this. Did anyone see Bush's speech in the Rose Garden the other day? The one where the two rescued international relief workers spoke?

I thought Bush seemed cranky that day. He seemed all hopped up on anger, or impatience, or something. He was snapping at people, and could barely contain himself. Did anyone else notice that?

The bigger question is, what's up? What would put him in such a cranky mood?

13 posted on 11/28/2001 4:58:04 PM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp
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To: HighWheeler
How do you explain the interview he gave, and the Al'Jazeer videos. Although the first one was probably filmed before the bombing started wasn't there a couple more taped after the airwar started?
14 posted on 11/28/2001 4:59:21 PM PST by tonyinv
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To: HighWheeler
Dead! I keep thinking of those thousands of Afghans crawling over those hills looking for Osama because of the $25 Million offer. Can't help LMAO at the thought! Let's raise the reward to a round $BILLION! The whole country will look like an aunt hill.
15 posted on 11/28/2001 5:03:56 PM PST by Henchman
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To: HighWheeler
There is a weakness in your argument relative to the "OJ Trial" theorem: Do you think that the Al-Queda operatives really understand the nuances of the American legal system and the culture from which it sprang? I don't. Therefore, I don't agree with your fear that Osama might suddenly be turned over to us in order to create the mother-of-all-circus-trials..

Another case in point concerning the cultural disconnect: Why should the Taliban make deliberate targets of Western journalists? It makes no sense in light of the Vietnam experience. The only hope for the survival of the Taliban regime is to make it politically impossible for the US to prosecute the offensive. The just made it a heckuva lot easier on Bush by offing those journalists. It's gonna make it a lot harder for Geraldo to second-guess Bush strategy. Western journalists are a potential ally to be wooed, not dragged from a pickup truck and shot like some rabid dog.

20 posted on 11/28/2001 5:11:06 PM PST by Tallguy
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To: HighWheeler
thanks for collating your thoughts and putting this together.

i vaguely recall rumsfeld early on discussing a war of disinformation. i believed his intention was to tip off the press that this would be a two way street. given this, bush's comments and actions would not be inconsistent with the war tactics. (in fact, i happen to believe that some of the united states/israel banter that went on while the coalition was being put together was planned to mute or at least mitigate arab nation concerns.)

i happen to believe, however, that much of the arab world believed that the taliban and al-qaeda were separate, a fact that is turning out to be false. bush was trying, i think, to show that the two worked hand in hand -- hence the edict to the taliban to turn over usama -- and bush knew they would not.

even if the taliban had turned over usama, bush would have put pressure on the taliban to chase down the rest of his network. without taliban resistance, bombing is not necessary.

the american public will demand some specific evidence that we are succeeding in this war. usama would be a major milestone -- although as you have alluded, there is a risk that the war ends with him. i believe that we would have heard if he were killed. al-jazeera, if nobody else, would have found out and publicized it for the response it would have received.

good thoughts and nice compilation of a lot of data. even though i am skeptical of the conclusions drawn, i highly respect the work you did!

21 posted on 11/28/2001 5:11:11 PM PST by mlocher
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To: HighWheeler
Let us just say he was killed today, November 28th so I can win the BIN LADEN (DEAD) POOL.
27 posted on 11/28/2001 5:41:52 PM PST by snippy_about_it
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To: HighWheeler
I don't think he's assumed cave temperature just yet. I do think that we've known where he's at all along though. Given the weak kneed support that we have gotten from some of our so called allies, we have had no choice but to keep him and Omar alive for now.

Follow along with this bit of twisted logic, the only way that we keep the Taliban and Al Queda forces fighting is for them to be alive. The local Afghanis will turn at the drop of a hat, however Osama's boys will not. Using sat intell and on the ground intell we have followed them around the country. We have observed their troop deployments and using a newly armed N.A. went after them. We used our air power to turn the locals as we did in Desert Storm ie they see us and can't surrender fast enough. We deplete their forces with a minimum of ground action taking place. We've been herding them into a central location making it easier for us to take out the guys that we're really after and pretty much insulating the populace from total warfare (see winning hearts and minds).

After only a couple of weeks we have the terrorists and their handlers in two places, Kunduz and Khandahar. Now we don't have to go into every nook and cranny looking for them. Meanwhile, the peaceniks, the bleeding hearts, and the Arabs can't go off the deep end screaming stop and build any momentum against the war.

You've now managed to put your opposition in a box, and can prosecute the war on your terms with little or no loss of political capital. When the time is right, you strike the fatal blow (we went after Omar yesterday, Osama can't be too far off). Take out the remaining terrorist forces, the remaining Taliban, and finally Osama. Game, set, and match in Afghanistan. Time to aquire the next target.

33 posted on 11/28/2001 6:37:22 PM PST by SCHROLL
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To: HighWheeler
I think you're right. Remember when that journalist did the last interview with him and said that he acted very different? Maybe he interviewed one of the doubles.
34 posted on 11/28/2001 6:49:49 PM PST by McGavin999
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To: susangirl
Final Anaylsis by Highwheeler (This is the Author’s opinion based on the above real information and author-assumed information):

Osama was killed in the first 5 days of the bombing campaign, probably on the first night while night vision technology would still be of added significant value. The U.S. generally knew where Osama was located prior to 9-11, but honed down his local zone of occupation in the 26 days prior to the bombing. Satellites and Predator spy planes were collecting real-time data on the suspected locations of Osama to narrow down the exact location. The Pentagon analyzed the recon photos to narrow the range, then used the bee-hive theory of probable location and confirmation. You can find the most important bee in a hive by finding the vibrant, dense cluster of worker bees surrounding their leader. Even at night, the IR signatures and night vision of the mobile and settled terrorist wanna-bees would create a radiating pattern, with all individuals’ movement and positions generally pointing to Osama’s location.

By waiting 26 days before bombing, a relatively false sense of security would be created for the terrorists. They would have sufficient time, and more importantly, a level of comfort and confidence in them to find Osama and stay near him. The response by terrorist followers to search and find Osama did in effect reveal bin Laden’s detailed position. Weeks were needed to finally settle on bin Laden’s actual position. Prior to bombing, The CIA confirmed his position with Predator drone aircraft and personnel operatives on the ground.

In the first night-time bombing raids, Osama’s entire surrounding Active Zone was thoroughly destroyed all the way out to a miles-wide buffer zone of absolutely no human activity. Bunker busters and conventional bombs fell continually for hours in the Active Zone, laying a continuous encircling carpet of utter destruction from which nothing larger than bacteria could survive. During the bombing runs, heavy jamming of cell phone frequencies made all cell phones and other forms of radio communication used by the terrorists ineffective.

Although nighttime can reveal the positions of explosions, the flash of light lasts only a moment compared with the resulting smoke, which can be seen for 10s of miles and for hours afterwards. By morning, all dense smoke evidence of the night’s bombings were not visible for miles beyond the Active Zone and the encircling Perimeter Zone.

Afterwards, for days later, everything that was detected to be moving or radiating energy inside the Active Zone was surgically struck with Apaches. Satellites and drones transmitted IR photos to assure that any body heat signatures were cold within the Active Zone. To create the illusion that the Active Zone was not necessarily Osama’s location, strikes were conducted all over parts of Afghanistan as a diversion.

Early on October 11, Bush was notified that the energy gradient in the Active Zone was flat, meaning that no bodies were alive, and no forms of electronic radiation were detected. The carefully constructed press conference speech was drafted and delivered stating that the US would "halt air strikes" if the Taliban would hand over bin Laden.

These concentrated air strikes met all 5 objectives and the last 4 Strategies shown above, and intentionally leave bin Laden’s death forever in question. The Active Zone is still maintained under surveillance, and any activity heading toward the Active Zone is stopped. For security and deterrence, several other zones are maintained to mimic the Active Zone.

42 posted on 11/28/2001 7:26:41 PM PST by HighWheeler
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To: HighWheeler
I love this post because I to have thought the same thing, but one thing troubles me and maybe the answer has been mentioned amongst the many replies but if he was dead why wouldn't his closest guards, companions, etcc... whatever they are called say anything about it. I fully understand why we would not say anything at this time but I just don't know about them. Enlighten me please.
55 posted on 12/03/2001 7:27:52 PM PST by GUIDO
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To: HighWheeler
BUMP - I'll be back!
58 posted on 12/07/2001 8:10:37 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: HighWheeler
I'll believe that OBL is dead when I see his dismembered remains displayed on the trestles of the Verrazano Bridge.
59 posted on 12/07/2001 8:21:58 AM PST by Caipirabob
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To: HighWheeler
Interesting!

Osama has left the building!



(((PING))))))
Tell me if you want OFF or ON my ping list - don't be shy. . .
62 posted on 12/07/2001 9:06:49 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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