God does not exist?

10/15/01 | Heartlander

[Heartlander]

What exactly is going on here? Schools suddenly want to make a point that God has no place in our children’s lives during a time our country is crying out for Him. If education is their claim than let’s deal with some facts:

1. Had the rate of expansion of the big bang been different, no life would have been possible. A reduction by one part in a million million would have led to collapse before the temperatures could fall below ten thousand degrees. An early increase by one part in a million would have prevented the growth of galaxies, stars, and planets.

2. The material of the observable universe is isotropic (evenly distributed) to an accuracy of 0. 1 percent. Such an accuracy is antecedently improbable and slight variations would rule out life.

3. Had the values of the gravitational constant, the strong force constant (the force binding protons and neutrons in the nucleus), the weak force (the force responsible for many nuclear processes [e.g., the transmutation of neutrons into protons]), and the electromagnetic force been slightly greater or smaller, no life would have been possible.

4. In the formation of the universe, the balance of matter to antimatter had to be accurate to one part in ten billion for the universe to arise.

5. The random coalescing of several unrelated factors necessary for life someplace in the universe is highly improbable. This can be seen by examining the factors on earth necessary for life. The point is not, however, that it is amazing that these factors came together on earth instead of somewhere else. Rather, it is amazing that they came together anywhere, and earth is used to illustrate the factors necessary. Had the ratio of carbon to oxygen been slightly different, no life could have formed. If the mass of a proton were increased by 0.2 percent, hydrogen would be unstable and life would not have formed. For life to form, the temperature range is only 1-2 percent of the total temperature range, and earth obtains this range by being the correct distance from the sun, just the right size, with the right rotational speed, with a special atmosphere which protects earth and evens out temperature extremes. In addition, the planet which had these factors just happened to contain the proper amount of metals (especially iron), radioactive elements to provide the right heat source, and water-forming compounds. Perhaps the proper temperature range could be obtained in another way. But earth shows how delicate and multifaceted are the independent factors involved in maintaining the correct temperature for life. 3

6. The chance formation of life from nonlife (abiogenesis) has been estimated at around 1 x 1040,000 Thus, the probability of life forming anywhere in the cosmos is miniscule. 4 Furthermore, in the process of reacting in some prebiotic chemical soup, the reactants often need to be isolated from their environment at just the right time and reintroduced at just the right time for the reaction to continue. This is achieved in the lab by investigator interference, but it is difficult to conceive of a mechanism to do this in nature and to do it at just the right time.

1. Davies, God and the New Physics, P. 189. 2. See Davies, God and the New Physics, pp. 177-89; The Accidental Universe (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982); John Wiester, The Genesis Connection (Nashville: Nelson, 1983), pp. 27-36, 47-50; hn Leslie, "Anthropic Principle, World Ensemble, Design," American Philosophical Quarterly 19 (Aprfl ):141-50. 3. Wiester, The Genesis Connection, pp. 42-43, 47-50. 4. For examples of these estimates, see Thaxton, Bradley, and Olsen, The Mystery of Life's Origin, pp. 113-66, 218-19; Pierre Lecomte du Noiiy, Human Destiny (New York: The New American Library of World Literature, 1949), pp. 30-39; Robert Shapiro, Origins (New York: Summit, 1986), pp. 117-31; Henry M. Morris, ed., Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, Calif.: Master, 1974), pp. 59 69

[Arthur McGowan]

Do you also think that those who don't want them should still pay for them?

[Heartlander]

But schools teach Greek Mythology. They teach Eastern philosophy. They teach atheism. Christianity has been ridiculed in the public schools

Is there not a conflict?

[Heartlander]

To state the obvious and yet ignore it at the same time... That must be bliss.

You are an arms length away from the stars I suppose. Is your understanding of them that much closer?

[Physicist]

Specific objections to the fine tuning problems you raised:

1. Compulsory if inflationary cosmology is correct.
2. Compulsory if inflationary cosmology is correct.
3. Incorrect. The latest research indicates that the electromagnetic coupling constant was indeed significantly different in the early universe.
4. The figure refers to the fact that for every 10 million primordial antimatter particles, there were 10 million and one particles of matter. The puzzling question for physicists is not why this ratio is so close to one (i.e., so highly "accurate"), but why it is so far from one. (I've actually done some work in this area.)
5. Without knowing more about the other planets in the galaxy, no probability can be estimated.
6. Without knowing specifically the process by which life arose on Earth, no probability can be estimated.

[Heartlander]

So my friend, what is the meaning of life?

[Heartlander]

God is being used in a public debate as we speak. I am humbly trying to defend Him.

[Physicist]

So my friend, what is the meaning of life?

I can't answer that question for you. Truth is objective; meaning is subjective. When you ask what something means, you must ask what something means to somebody. What your life means to you depends on your values.

[Heartlander]

So than how can we hold the Taliban accountable for their values? By what basis do you debate my values? Your world is in a constant state of flux, dictated by man and his surroundings at the time. (If time truly exists)

[Physicist]

I am humbly trying to defend Him.

If you are trying to defend God by looking for seams in Creation, you mightn't have bothered. You won't find any. God is far too subtle a craftsman for that. The more deeply you look at something, the more you will conclude that it is so right, it simply couldn't have been any other way. (I am talking about fundamentals and not specifics, of course.)

[Proud Canadian]

Well then, who created god?

Did he just pop out of nowhere one day? Gradually evolve from lesser beings? Yes, there are alot of things that we do not understand about the universe, but I have a much easier time believing that we originated due to a series of improbable coincidences than there is some devine being, who appears to be able to transcend all known laws of physics to tinker at a microscopic level with a massively complex universe.

Even if there were a supernatural being behind our every move, who's to say that it is a christian god? Why are the Native American myths of creation any less truthful? The christian concept of god is no less mythical than the Greek and Roman gods of ancient mythology.

As for public schools, they serve a valuable purpose in ensuring children are exposed to scientific ideals, rather than being trapped in their parent's religion.

[Heartlander]

I fail to understand where you stand on this issue. I do agree with your statement though...

[Physicist]

I don't feel like typing in the standard Objectivist theory of moral sentiments tonight. Suffice it to say that I am a moral absolutist. The only possible standard of value for a human being to hold is human life; every other standard is necessarily self-contradictory. The rest of morality flows ineluctably from this.

Besides, I also reject the notion that, if their moral system is somehow objectively equivalent to ours--which it isn't--we therefore can't judge them according to our moral system. Not judging people according to your moral system is tantamount to not having a moral system at all.

[Misterioso]

So my friend, what is the meaning of life?

When I am asked that question I assume the questioner is really asking, "What is the purpose of life?" and my answer is always, "Why do you ask?" Once in awhile I get a knowing smile.

[Heartlander]

I was having an interesting conversation with my father who is a veteran of war for this great nation. It is not something he usually talks about, but in our current situation he felt the need and I was very attentive. He told me of how prisoners of war were treated. The captors would seek out the officers, priest, and physicians and either separate them from the others or kill them. They did this because it eliminated the guidance of leadership, spiritual guidance, and physical care. This made the prisoners easier to control and indoctrinate. They essentially took away many of their foundations and left them on sandy ground. After the Geneva Convention, this treatment and others were to end.

I stopped to ponder our colleges and even public schools here in the U.S. It seems we to need to have a Geneva Convention for the sake of our youth being indoctrinated in this same manner. These schools (not all) have rewritten history, they teach not to trust the military actions, have made great leaders into villains, and have even called to question the Constitution that this great nation was founded upon. They question the existence of God that their parents had brought them up to believe. Yes, even medicine is being brought into the issue; abortion, fetal research, assisted suicide, and cloning. This is all under a blanket of “free thought”.

Do not get me wrong, by no means am I against free thought. This country was founded on freedom but all must agree there must be limits as to the extent if it hurts another or infringes on their freedoms. I have the freedom to drink… Should I become an alcoholic and disregard my family? Why not? I have the freedom of free speech… Should I degrade all people I come in contact with? Why not? I have the freedom of religion… Should I kill all others that do not agree with my doctrine? Why not?!!!… I think freedom of thought is great… But Not when it destabilizes our foundations! Not when it takes away justice! Not when it replaces Rock with sand!

[eddie willers]

It's obvious that you don't have a clue as to the views held by Physicist.
Why don't you wade around this forum a little bit before you embarrass youself further.

[Heartlander]

Why do you say this? I do understand - maybe differently than yourself.