This war is not about terror, it's about Islam

The Sunday Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 10/07/2001 | David Selbourne

[Aquinasfan]

This article is sad but true.

Read [the Koran] and be you own judge.

I don't think that's too much to ask.

[wildandcrazyrussian]

Thanks for catching that! Of course I meant "UN" not "NATO", since I as an avid student of history know India is not anywhere near the North Atlantic. I thought I was doing pretty good remembering the general's name.

[Mamzelle]

re: "Gullible and guilty women" in the OT

Considering that the OT predates the Qu'ran by thousands of misogyinistic years, you might take note of Deborah the Judge and Esther the clever liberator of her people. Miriam, Zepphorah? Rahab the canny harlot was in the line of Christ. How about Ruth (also a pagan, and also in the line of Christ) and her independent mind? Leah and Rachel provided an object lesson of the struggle in a polygamist household, Sarah and Rebecca had thier own hearts and wills, and their personalities were clear in the old texts. They were PEOPLE, not concubines, little girls, objects of a prophet's self-justifying lust, or captive rape victims.

And in the New Testament, Christ ministered early and often to the women. Called one, "daughter of Abraham." Spoke out against exploitation of divorce...

Not exactly, "Talaq, talaq, talaq"--"I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you"--which was an innovation under the Koran to leave an unwanted wife helpless and destitute.

I've been doing some looking at Islam for the first time, myself. I see nothing approaching equivalence between the OT and the violence of the Koran. The closest thing to it was God's injuction to the conquering Hebrews to dispose of the pagan Canaanites swiftly and ruthlessly--and the Jews disobeyed. This was only one such directive, and it contained the promise that Israel held the divine deed to the Holy Land.

Perhaps we have the descendents of those pagans now to deal with, ourselves.

[kosta50]

Thank you. Your answer is most appreciated and is very informative. I should have clarified my statement: it refers to Eve. Of course, Adam ate the apple too, but had it not been for Eve's gullability, it wouldn't have happened (and the world would be a "boring" Paradise!).

[kosta50]

It's Eve! Genesis, Chapter 3. The Original Sin is suqarely placed on her. The message: had she not done what she had done, the world would be a "boring" Paradise!

[kosta50]

Thank you for your informative answer. To me this is all meaningless because the world revolved without man's inventions of gods and deities for a long time and will, no doubt, continue to do so in spite of them. I just find it interesting that in the 21st century we are still fighting crusades of sorts and quoting various religious texts as if they represented anything tangible or real -- other than what people make of them.

Religion, if one must believe in something, should be a personal matter, something one does in the privacy of his or her life, and not an institution or polics of conquest.

I wish he could have shown me which Gospel calls on the believers in Christ to kill, but I also know that believers in Christ took it upon themselves to interpret their "duty" to kill in the name of Christ on too many occasions.

I also find it somewhat perplexing that the Koran is the litteral word of God (voices!), yet it should be interpretted allegorically. How does one interpret allegorically Sura, Chapter 9?

[kosta50]

The Jews had the "core" of God's plan

Yes, but it took Paul's politics and gentle armstwisting to convince the Christian church in Israel to depart from Jewish rituals and make Christianity a world religion rather than a Jewish sect. I am not so sure Jesus intended to depart from Judaism.

Anyway, all this is intriguing because it's 21st century and we are still waging crusades over things that, to me at least, seem as wild fantasies more than anything else.

My only concern is that religious fanatics believe they are doing some God's work by killing people and I want to see such insanity stopped. I hope that when all the dust settles the world will abolish origanized religion and allow people to worship whatever they prefer in the privacy of their homes.

[Mamzelle]

Dear kosta50-- Christ said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. There are those who interpreted that as a warrior's blessing, but more often became a despot's justification.

Christ was rather saying, "Don't expect sweetness and light in this mortal lifetime." He was warning his hearers that the earth was under a reign of darkness, which we clearly have evidence as truth.

We are being told that Islam is being perverted to the ends of a madman, but if you read the Koran in even a cursory way, the violence is clear. I don't see how it can be allegorized away. If Muslims are "moderate," they are very distant, indeed, from their religious text.

The absence of religion is not the answer you would appear to seek. Communism, which killed sixty million in one century, was non-religious.

Perhaps you seek a total absence of ideology? Then you would seek to defy the human nature even more than the Communists or the temptation of The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil...

[kosta50]

Christ said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword

Mamzelle, is that in line with Christ's teachings? That is what someone who wrote the New testament, years after Jesus' death claims Jesus said.

The absence of religion is not the answer you would appear to seek. Communism, which killed sixty million in one century, was non-religious

I don't care if people pray to a Unicorn. That's their business. I have a problem with organized and institutionalized religion which is as far from that "personal relationship with God" as it can get. If religion is such a personal relationship with some imagined deity, then let it be just that -- personal, not public, not institutionalized. Let it be no different than any other personal relationship, or the private business in the confines of a home.

I have a problem with people who carry on "in God's name," the self-rigteous, self-appointed messangers of "God." We are in the 21st century and we are subjectedo to religious crusades. Religion resisted progress -- and still does. Take a look at religious countries -- Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. In Europe, religious auhtorities blamed the plague on the Jews, the Devil and "God squads" were burining 1,000 "witches" a year for 300 years in Europe, and the only reason why the Crusades did not kill sixty million is because there were not sixty million to kill and -- more importantly -- they didn't have the means!

Communism was not about atheism. It was anti-religious because the class struggle Marxism waged against the establishment was backed by organized religion, as part of that establishment. The only officially atheist communist country was Enver Hoxa's Albania.

Communism was repressive and brutal because its staunchest believers felt they were doing the "right (if not God's) thing." Socialism was, ironically -- like many religious movements, born as a "salvation." It evolved from liberal humanism of the early 19th century and it raised its voice against social injustices of the 19th century Industrial Revolution, the abominable work conditions of the labor class, child labor and women's lack of rights. Communism, or more correctly Marxism (Bolshevism in Russia), was a violent, rabbid "fundamentalist" offshoot of socialism. Its atheism was only coincidental, in context of the times, and wholy reactionary, but never the main driving force.

[Mamzelle]

Please review; I did not assert that Communism was atheistic, but "non religious." You then took issue with my assertion of Communistic athethism.

Communism, like all ism's, is/was a human notion. Your expectation of living in some universe where no *notions* have power over you or your liberty is a non-starter. Only life among machines would provide such a thing for you. People will forever be imposing values on others because they believe they know best what's good for you. It's what I call the fundamental of SELF-CONGRATULATION. Example: Hillary would do any cruelty that she could get away with because of her smug assurance that she is a "good guy" and, prima facie, must always perforce do the good thing. Even if she's putting you in prison...

In an imperfectible universerse, we are left with fallible reason/experience/proportion to decide about the superiority of one idea over another. Nothing, I assert, has proven itself through history and experience, as being as good for individuals (liberty and prosperity) as the Christian-influenced Hellenic Westerners.

If you'd like to attack an assertion that I have actually made, there's one for you.

[kosta50]

Interesting reply. Communist regimes, however, were not just "non-religious." They professed atheism. That doesn't mean that atheism is identical or comparable to that other "ism." The former is a realization of an individual that there is no God, or that there is no reason for God; the latter is an institution that professes that idea. Now, one would imagine that a "good communist" would believe the doctrine of the institution he or she belongs to, as much as one would believe that a "good Catholic" follows the Dogma to the letter -- i.e. no premarital sex (yeah, sure). So, most so-called believers are believers of convenience and are really more club members than true believers.

Man's manture is to overpower, just as any other predatory animal. We have only added some of our "higher" goals. By pretending (and that's all religion really is) that the thoughts and ideas come from some god, and not from us, we justify our actions in the name of that god.

It's not about religion; it's about man's domination over mankind. It's not the goal, but the means that differ.

As for your assertion that "Nothing ... has proven itself through history and experience, as being as good for individuals (liberty and prosperity) as the Christian-influenced Hellenic Westerners", you are preaching to the choir. That's self-evident. All you have to do is read what the "competition" has to offer:

Hadith 001.002.028 The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful."

Hadith 001.006.301 "The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Hadith 001.009.490 The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)."

[RAY]

A year in Saudi, just after the Gulf War, made it clear to me -- the Islamic world, as I saw it, will never peacfully coexist with Western Secular Democary.

[Shermy]

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