Why Does The Shroud of Turin Still Exist?

Townhall.com ^ | July 28, 2019 | Myrah Kahn Adams

[Mrs. Don-o]

Your comprehensive incomprehension is noted.

May God bless you in the manner He knows best.

[ealgeone]

Mrs. D....you're a great dancer.

All we need is a yes or no answer to metmom's question.

The apparition made a specific statement with specific conditions.

[Mark17]

+1

[grey_whiskers]

That's irrelevant, since the contention was not about the efficacy of his explicit apologia, but the mere witness of a changed life.

[Manly Warrior]

Facts do not support that claim. Anecdotal, mysterious phenomena granted, but unanswerable . Sometimes wisdom requires one to say “I just don’t know”.

You take the position that it is an image of Christ, fine, I simply say “I don’t think so, I can find no reason for such an artifact, but I do not and cannot know” ( and I won’t be asking when I see Him face to face!). I do however understand that the Scripture declares that Christ’s visage was marred beyond that of any man, that his beard was plucked out, that his body lashed into an unrecognizable condition and that He ( most importantly) died shedding his blood for the payment to His Righteous Holy Father for all of our sins and sin nature, that His body was broken for ours that by His massive stripes we are healed, and that by His exercise of His faith in His Father’s love, that we can come boldly to the Throne of Grace and be seen by the Omnipotent Creator LORD as His special children....

Some may need a shroud, a magic ceremony, an organization and miracles to believe, fine. Some simply understand ( well, sort of I suppose) that Jesus Love for us while we sinners is unfathomable and His dead and resurrection frees us from the law of sin and death itself. Amen.

It is all about Jesus, not anything or anyone else.

[Mark17]

The difference, as I understand it, is that an evangelical of the "Once Saved, Always Saved" variety, would say that once you're saved, you're good to go, no matter what you thoughts, words and deeds subsequently may be. You can stop believing, stop praying, and stop walking in the way of the Lord and still be saved: Blessed Assurance.

I disagree with your understanding. Metmom, care to refute that argument, AGAIN.

[grey_whiskers]

As Wolfgang Pauli said, you're not even wrong. But go ahead and continue to posture and to make inaccurate stereotypes. It's amusing.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"In the interests of accuracy, is that what you believe? That once saved, you cannot lose your salvation?

(Because if that is not your belief, then please explain what a person would have to do or fail to do, to lose their salvation.)"

I will sincerely appreciate whatever you have to say. I am particularly interested in what you would do with the two lines which *followed* the two lines you quoted, which I have cut-and-pasted above.

My mouth is shut, my ears are open. Thanks in advance.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I just scrolled down to two pages of queue and did not see metmom’s question. Would you kindly repeat the question?

[GingisK]

Kudos! Wonderful analysis and conclusions.

[ealgeone]

Nice dodge. Try post 536. It was pinged to you.

[Hebrews 11:6]

HMMMmmm… Just WHO is going to be giving this 'grace'?

Rhetorical flourishes aside, it is a blessing to consider the dynamics of Ephesians 4:29. We are urged to employ its method by way of functioning as the conduit for imparting God's grace, for the purpose of fulfilling the commandment of tangibly expressing [God's] love for our brother.

[vladimir998]

“Totally clueless. If you don’t think that seeing the fruit of the Spirit manifest in someone’s life is not evidence enough to convince someone that the claims of Christ are true, then you apparently have never met any real Christians.”

No what I said is just common sense: “Every Christian in the forum knows someone who did NOT come to know “that the claims of Christ are true” merely because of another person’s “changed life”.”

That is simply irrefutable. If it were otherwise, then how many non-Christians would there be? First century Jews saw Jesus - the very Son of God - in the flesh and most simply didn’t believe in Him even after miracles.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Nice dodge."

I do not respond to people who communicate by insult.

[vladimir998]

There was no fallacy in my statements.

You posted this:

“I will post the sentence you spewed that is the fallacy of the undistributed middle: “So everyone you know in daily life has become a believer in Christ, right?” vladimir998

But my comment was a perfectly logical one in response to metmom’s:

“If someone knows Christ, their lives will show it and people will see it.”

People might see a change in someone, but that does not guarantee that they will attribute this change to Christ, nor does it mean that they will concluded Christ is God, risen from the dead, the Messiah and so on. That was clearly what metmom was talking about: “A changed life is all the evidence an unbeliever needs to see in someone to know that the claims of Christ are true.”

Thus, my comment was perfectly logical based entirely on what metmom herself has said. There was no logical fallacy on my part at all.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I am glad you accept Yes or No questions.

Yes the motto is true, keeping in mind the conditions for being in a state of sanctifying grace.

Yes the motto is true, but "No," it would not be understood correctly by somebody who does not understand sanctifying grace, or the means of access to / increase of grace.

---

This answer is similar, I think,to what one might give for a parallel question:

(Acts 2:21) "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

Vs.

(Matthew 7:21) "Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

If #2 is true, does that mean #1 is false?

Yes or No answer, please.

[Mrs. Don-o]

To specify those conditions:

Let's say the favor sought, is to enter into Heaven without any temporal punishments due to sin.

The conditions would be:

• sacramental confession
• Eucharistic Communion
• prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff
• breaking off all attachment to sin, even venial sin.

If you wished to gain this favor, the things necessary are the spiritual purification you ask God to give you through prayer and the sacraments, and detachment from sin. The scapular would be the sign of this, not the cause of it.

A person expecting to enter Heaven by wearing a scapular (without attachment to God and detachment from sin) would be practicing futility. In fact, a person receiving sacramental Confession and Sacramental Communion ---without sincere detachment from sin and attachment to God--- would be practicing not just futility but sacrilege.

This is comparable to a person expecting to enter Heaven by saying "The Sinner's Prayer" or some such "Lord, Lord" formula of words, but without attachment to God and detachment from sin.

[MHGinTN]

So satan is busy into the afternoon!

It is amazing how carnal minded a carnal person can be, removing sentences from their context to try and pose a dichotomy.

[metmom]

Some may need a shroud, a magic ceremony, an organization and miracles to believe, fine.

I doubt the shroud would convince any skeptic to believe.

The rich man in hell thought that seeing a miracle would convince his brothers to believe and Abraham said that even if someone were to rise from the dead, they would not believe if they already didn't listen to God's word.

[ealgeone]

I see you’re back on that high horse again. Keep dodging.