Trump's Sec'y of State falls into J-Street trap over PA state

Arutz Sheva ^ | 12/1/17 | Suzy Dim

[Eleutheria5]

.....

Here is the exchange between Virgina Senator Tim Kaine (D) and Tillerson:

KAINE: Mr. Tillerson, thank you. I encourage people to fly north to south not just east and west, and other parts of the world have a claim in our attention, but there are some real opportunities. I assume you support the U.S. position that's been in place since the 1940s to do what we can to provide a two-state solution with Israel and Palestine with a living peacefully side by side, that is the dream we hope for that region and I assume that you support that?

TILLERSON: I don't think anyone would take a position they don't hope for peace in that area for the issues to be ultimately resolved.

KAINE: And peace within the context of two-state solution as was determined by the U.N. and been the bipartisan policy since the late 1940s?

TILLERSON: I think that's the dream everyone is in pursuit of. Whether it can be a reality remains to be seen.

.....

TILLERSON: .....

The issues are long-standing and I think it's the state department's role to create, try to create an environment that brings parties together to want to find a way forward. I can tell you under the conditions today that's just -- it's extremely challenging to do that, but that has to be the aspirational goal. And to your example, sometimes it takes a different generation that's not carrying all that baggage of the past with them.

KAINE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

.....

[Right_in_Virginia]

What would you have had the potential US SOS say?

Seriously. What?

[Alberta's Child]

I’m referring to “Palestine” as defined in the U.N. partition plan for the British Mandate of Palestine as administered by the British from 1920 to 1948. This absolutely did NOT include Jordan.

[Eleutheria5]

Creating a second state within Israel’s natural boundaries will not lead to peace, but to more war. Since my desire is peace, as it is the desire of all people of good will, I must reject the “two state ‘solution’” as no solution at all, but a continued exacerbation of an old problem with an old and failed prescription. Doctors were prescribing leeches for longer than statesmen have been prescribing the “two state ‘solution,’,” but when the former proved ineffective for restoring their patients’ health, they discarded it for something better. So, too, this so-called solution must be discarded in favor of something that has at least a chance of working, and not such a long record of repeated failure, if we are ever to have peace in the Middle East.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Okay, these are your personal feelings.

I respect them.

My question was what you wanted America’s top diplomat to say?

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you'd like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

I don't see any problem with what he said. Who doen't want peace? I'm glad he recognizes reality is more difficult to deal with than dreams.

[Right_in_Virginia]

So, too, this so-called solution must be discarded in favor of something that has at least a chance of working,

Won't someone need to take in those living within Israel's "natural borders"? Is Netanyahu negotiating this with other ME nations?

In other words, what steps has the Netanyahu government taken to help move Israel closer to realizes your objectives?

[Eleutheria5]

To recognize the reality that my statement merely reflects. The two-state solution is dead, and the sooner America’s top diplomat recognizes it, the better, because that would make it possible to consider an alternative solution that could lead to a real peace, instead of yet another photo op in between explosions. I had hoped that Tillerson would be that diplomat, but apparently not. He’ll ultimately have to get in the line with Hillary, Lurch, and all the other failed diplos who backed the two-state “solution”. It’s a long, long line, which uses its length in order to justify its members’ fallacious thinking.

[rmlew]

Whether that is even feasible 70 years later is a legitimate question, but there is no basis for the claim that Jordan is a "Palestinian state."

There are 2 very clear bases for calling Jordan a Palestinian state:
1. In 1923, over 3/4 of 1922 Palestine was set aside as the Arab state of TransJordan.
2. In 1948, after ethnically cleansing the Jews that they didn't kill, the English and Nazi led Transjordanian invasion resulted in the annexation of the West Bank and Jerusalem by Tranjordan, which became the Kingdom of Jordan. No one claimed that the Palestinians lost their state.

That is simply not true. The original 1947 U.N. plan for the British Mandate of Palestine included THREE separate areas: an "Arab State," a "Jewish State," and a quasi-sovereign area around Jerusalem that would function under international governance.
Arab nations rejection this plan made it dead letter. It is null and void and has about as much legitimacy as the Kellog-Briande Pact.

[Alberta's Child]

So the English and the Nazis were allies in 1948?

[Eleutheria5]

“Won’t someone need to take in those living within Israel’s “natural borders”? Is Netanyahu negotiating this with other ME nations?”

Egypt can have Ghaza, which it once annexed, and a free hand to clean out the MB stronghold there. Hamas is their enemy, too.

“In other words, what steps has the Netanyahu government taken to help move Israel closer to realizes your objectives?”

The only positive step that Bibi has really taken is bringing Bennett into the government. He’s been four-square behind the two-state solution from the get-go, uprooting Jewish outposts from Judah and Samaria, putting Hebron under the jurisdiction of the PA, etc. He’s stopped doing these things, where the courts have let him, in order to keep his coalition, but that is not a positive step, just a cessation of implementing error. I’m sure he’d create a Pali state if the Palis would let him. But they won’t. Just ask Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.

[Right_in_Virginia]

To recognize the reality that my statement merely reflects. The two-state solution is dead, and the sooner America’s top diplomat recognizes it, the better, because that would make it possible to consider an alternative solution that could lead to a real peace

Here's what has me confused. Netanyahu says he still wants a two state solution, except during national elections when he doesn't, and then when he wins he says he really does.

Which one is it?

Is he telling the truth when he says "yes" to the two states? If so, he needs to seriously work with his friends to that end --- even if it means a halt to settlement building.

If Netanyahu comes out and declares a two state solution is "dead" ... and he will continue to build settlements, then he needs to offer an alternative.

The world has been working toward a two-state solution --with Israel's approval and support-- for 50 years. If Israel wants something else ... let's hear the proposal.

Is this unreasonable?

[Eleutheria5]

That’s why I want Naftali Bennett for PM. He has articulated an alternative. Bibi really does want a two-state ‘solution,’ and I’m sick of him and the crimes he’s committed in order to forward it, and how he pretends otherwise only when he’s up for reelection.

[Right_in_Virginia]

That’s why I want Naftali Bennett for PM. He has articulated an alternative. Bibi really does want a two-state ‘solution,’ and I’m sick of him and the crimes he’s committed in order to forward it, and how he pretends otherwise only when he’s up for reelection.

I fully support Israel. And I love the United States.

I would like our strongest ally in the Middle East to leave us out of this until and unless Israel, aka BiBi Netanyahu, is honest and clear about what he wants and what he is willing to do in exchange.

Please, give the US a fighting chance to not be sucked into another round of smoke and mirror "peace talks". Give us something concrete to help you with. Please.

[Eleutheria5]

Peace talks? We don’t need no steenkin’ piece talks. What Palis got through Oslo to date, we are not going to war to take back. Keep it in peace and don’t mess with us. You want a state? Go declare a state. Recognize us, don’t recognize us. Who cares. You want part of Jerusalem, go to hell. If you go to war with us, we will regard what ever territory we take from you as ours and start developing and settling it immediately.

A note like this would be all the peace talks we should have with them in future.

[Praxeologue]

KAINE: And peace within the context of two-state solution as was determined by the U.N. and been the bipartisan policy since the late 1940s?

TILLERSON: I think that's the dream everyone is in pursuit of. Whether it can be a reality remains to be seen.

Neither John Bolton nor any other well-briefed nominee would have responded with those words.

Kaine was trying to get Tillerson to commit to the two-state solution as stare decisis and Tillerson fell for it.

The two-state solution is but one of several options, but in the view of the Democrats, it is the only option.

The problem is that we are left wondering whether Tillerson was merely not well briefed, was ignorant on a key policy issue or actually believes that the two-state solution will be the Trump administration's position.

As for Netanyahu, I believe that he supports the two-state solution only because he knows that the PA will never recognize Israel's right to exist and therefore never be able to enter into negotiations. Naftali Bennett can say what he really thinks, since he is not PM. I hope that he is a future PM.

[Kickass Conservative]

Just an FYI, some Climate Group has been running Anti Tillerson Commercials on every channel in S. CA where I live.

The usual out of context Videos, linking him to Putin (the War Criminal) because he was involved in Russian Oil deals and of course the evil Exxon Mobil destroying the Environment.

It is quite a production. They are bat shit crazy, and it looks like Little Marco might be the one to torpedo Rex.

[cynwoody]

The two-state solution is already in place. The other state is called Jordan.

[Impy]

I’d for Kaine to be defeated in 2018.

[Eleutheria5]

“As for Netanyahu, I believe that he supports the two-state solution only because he knows that the PA will never recognize Israel’s right to exist and therefore never be able to enter into negotiations.”

If it were only a matter of making speeches paying lip service, you’d be right. But he has had left-wingers in his cabinet such as Ehud Barak and Tzipi Livni, and through such proxies he’s had people rousted out of their homes by Druze soldiers, and sent in bulldozers. You are talking about families with small children, occupying particle-board hutches they built themselves with nothing but carpeting for floors, and you’re talking concrete block houses. Their belongings were left scattered on the ground and the neighboring Arabs looted them with impunity. Since in at least one instance, these were friends of mine, I’d say his commitment to a two-state solution has gone too far. Giving 97% of Hebron to the PA was also too far. Ask Hadassa Tehiyya, if you don’t think so.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Peace talks? We don’t need no steenkin’ piece talks.

Okay. What do you need, what would the solution look like and how would you like the US to help make it a reality?