Posted on 06/28/2016 8:45:08 AM PDT by Kaslin
In response to my open letter to Isaac Archuleta, who describes himself as a bisexual Christian, Richard S. posted a lengthy comment on my personal Facebook page, including this statement: “The logical conclusion to your theology (gays can change and if they don't it must be because they don't have faith or are deceived) is extremely damaging to the souls of gay people. That was the point of Isaac's letter. No amount of nice words will erase the damage. Only honest reconsideration of your theology will bring healing. Please don't discount/deny the faith of your gay brothers and sisters. They have much to contribute to the church.”
Of course, Richard has completely misstated what conservative Christians believe (we don’t say or believe that if gays don’t change “it must be because they don't have faith or are deceived”), just as other parts of his comment (not quoted here) were also based on serious misunderstandings.
But that is secondary to the bigger issue, and Richard is one of many who are telling serious Bible believers that, “Only honest reconsideration of your theology will bring healing.”
He could not be more wrong.
First, what Scripture says on homosexual practice is not negotiable, and no amount of new books or videos or personal stories will change that.
As I explained in my book Can You Be Gay and Christian?, “no new textual, archeological, sociological, anthropological, or philological discoveries have been made in the last fifty years that would cause us to read any of these biblical texts differently. Put another way, it is not that we have gained some new insights into what the biblical text means based on the study of the Hebrew and Greek texts. Instead, people’s interaction with the LGBT community has caused them to understand the biblical text differently.”
Simply stated, if not for the sexual revolution, no one would be reexamining what the Scriptures state about God’s intention for His creation.
No one would be wondering if two men or two women could “marry” or if a husband could also be a wife.
No one would be doubting that the Lord made men for women and women for men and that any deviation from that pattern was contrary to His design and intent.
As one New Testament scholar was candid enough to admit, it was clear to him that the Bible forbade homosexual practice, but when his own daughter came out as a lesbian, he changed his opinion on the subject.
That’s why I’ve often stated that there is not a single argument that can be brought from God’s Word to defend homosexual practice, but there are powerful emotional arguments that can be brought. In that context, I’m often reminded of Jesus’ words that, “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matt. 10:37).
The father of a “gay Christian” activist changed churches when his home congregation rejected his son’s views on homosexuality. When asked about these words of Jesus, he commented that there were other churches he could go to, but he had only one son.
I could only wince when I heard his words, so loving in one way but so destructive in another.
Second, if there was something to reconsider in our theology we would gladly do it. The truth be told, as impossible as the “gay Christian” arguments struck me, I went to the Lord about them, buying the books that defended this new way of reading Scripture, reading the stories (and listening to the stories) of professing gay Christians, allowing my heart to be torn and my mind to be challenged.
At the end of the day, as a biblical scholar, a lover of Jesus, and a lover of people, it was impossible for me to accept their arguments. The Word is just too clear on this, and without some kind of emotional or social or other pressure to reconsider what Scripture states, no one would deny this.
Third, those who argue that Christians agree to disagree on lots of things without denying each other’s faith fail to realize that they do not agree to disagree on behaviors that Scripture strongly condemns – unless they themselves are living in some kind of moral compromise.
We’re not dealing here with a question of whether speaking in tongues is for today or whether Christians are required to tithe or whether Jesus is coming before the tribulation.
We’re dealing with redefining the very meaning of marriage and claiming that a behavior that is plainly condemned in the Old and New Testaments – I’m talking about same-sex cohabitation – is now blessed by God.
And while God alone is the judge of every professing Christian, be that person gay or straight, we cannot embrace as fellow brothers and sisters those who are affirming, practicing, and even celebrating homosexuality.
We will put our arms around everyone who struggles with same-sex attraction, loving them and embracing them and encouraging them in their walk with the Lord, whether their walk entails transformation from homosexual to heterosexual or whether it entails celibacy.
But we will not and cannot affirm and bless what the Lord Himself opposes. To do so is to do a disservice to those in the LGBT community.
Fourth, God’s message of grace and truth brings healing and wholeness and deliverance and freedom, as millions of people from every walk of life can attest, including large numbers of people who once identified as LGBT.
I’m quite aware that there are genuine homo-haters in the Church (I plan to address this yet again in the coming days; God is their judge as well), and I’m quite aware that Christians have often failed to demonstrate Christlike love and compassion to the LGBT community (to put it mildly).
But I’m also quite aware that when we speak the truth in love and people actually hear what we’re saying (not the interpretation they put on our words but the real message of our words), if that message is received it will bring life not death.
To all of you reading this article who say, “I’m gay, I’m Christian, I’m involved in a same-sex relationship, and we’re thriving in the Lord,” I invite you to call my radio show or to send me your story or, if you live in my city, to get together with me and some of your friends – not for the purpose of debate but for the purpose of honest, loving, heartfelt interaction.
And if you have time, would you watch my video, “Can You Be Gay and Christian?” and tell me what I don’t understand and where I don’t display genuine empathy?
And if you’d like to read my book by the same title and you genuinely can’t afford it, email me your story, include your address, and I’ll send you a copy for free. You will not find a hateful word in the book, but you will find someone who cares.
They wanted God in their own image so they made ODIN multiracial LGBT. Their God is their mirrors! When I met Odin I thought, you are the Man, I’m not even close to being a man...and He took me beyond my limits. Their limits and their superstitions are their God! Thank you, byebye! Krazy Ketill
In response to my open letter to Bill Horndog, who describes himself as an adulterous Christian, Dick S. posted a lengthy comment on my personal Facebook page, including this statement: “The logical conclusion to your theology (adulterers can change and if they don’t it must be because they don’t have faith or are deceived) is extremely damaging to the souls of adulterous people. That was the point of Horndog’s letter. No amount of nice words will erase the damage. Only honest reconsideration of your theology will bring healing. Please don’t discount/deny the faith of your adulterous brothers and sisters. They have much to contribute to the church.”
Of course, Dick has completely misstated what conservative Christians believe (we don’t say or believe that if adulterers don’t change “it must be because they don’t have faith or are deceived”), just as other parts of his comment (not quoted here) were also based on serious misunderstandings . . .
First, what Scripture says on adultery is not negotiable, and no amount of new books or videos or personal stories will change that . . .
As one New Testament scholar was candid enough to admit, it was clear to him that the Bible forbade adulterous practices, but when his own daughter came out as a cheater, he changed his opinion on the subject.
That’s why I’ve often stated that there is not a single argument that can be brought from God’s Word to defend adulterous practice, but there are powerful emotional arguments that can be brought. In that context, I’m often reminded of Jesus’ words that, “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matt. 10:37).
The father of an “adulterous Christian” activist changed churches when his home congregation rejected his son’s views on adultery. When asked about these words of Jesus, he commented that there were other churches he could go to, but he had only one son . . .
But we will not and cannot affirm and bless what the Lord Himself opposes. To do so is to do a disservice to those in the swinger community.
No, sin is extremely damaging to the souls of gay people. Notice these "gay christians" never seem to want to talk about the problem of sin?
Colt .45. It works every time.
*hic*
A “homosexual” who is active and unrepentant cannot inherit the Kingdom, no ifs ands or buts, no exceptions.
Yet when Paul said so he immediately followed it with “and such were some of you”. That is the truth. Repentance with the power that God provides is possible.
It does not matter one jot how a unrepentant sinner feels about it, how they wail that it damages them, and to abandon the truth just because you discover someone you care about runs afoul of it is not merely treacherous ... it is fatuous to boot: both intellectually and spiritually vapid.
Consider that these days there is often something MORE than just being an unrepentant sinner involved: rather homosexuals are defining themselves in relation to this thing they do, as if it is the central fact of their identity. By doing so they have surrendered over their whole self concept to this lust and cannot think of themselves except that they fulfil this thing they now serve body and soul.
This is really what we face by those who want to demand that Christians abandon righteousness so that they may be accepted.
A person CANNOT define themselves as a Homosexual and a Christian ... that is like serving two masters where one must give way. If they hold fast to Christ then their sin MUST give way and they repent. If they hold fast to their sin, as if that is who and what they truly are, then we cannot say that they have departed from the Faith for they, having another faith (in their homosexuality), are unrepentant still.
An honorable and honest person in the latter case would acknowledge that they are not Christian at all and simply depart. But for whatever reason the Church has been plagued by dishonorable and dishonest people who not merely fool themselves but they try to work their way back into our congregations and, if they are able, to get others to agree with them rather than with Christ, to follow after them.
I believe this is part of what Romans 1:18-32 addresses. It is not about those who have never known about righteousness or that God is Holy, Holy, Holy ... it is written in reference to those who do not retain knowledge of God.
Such persons are simply and flatly dangerous. They are carriers of a virulent spiritual cancer that can kill. They do not repent, and thinking that repentance is impossible they proceed to presume it must therefore be unnecessary ... often blaming God for how they are. *** Heed them at your peril. Honor them at risk of immortal soul.
Rather than give in to their desires we should be better to even put them out. There is no love in coddling a sinner unwilling to repent. Doing so probably helps them remain unrepentant.
*** Though God is not the author of their sin, or of any sin: they are of their father, the Devil, for they live as he would have them live, not as God would have them live, and they, if they continue in unbelief and sin, will eventually perish forever.
Brilliant!
Are the text in opposition to gays in the Old Testament?
Corinthians 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10 I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.…
You are right to being up adultery. The process of accommodating sin and abandoning the knowledge of God does not start with immediately embracing and supporting over the top vulgar or perverted sins. It begins by abusing God’s gifts and befouling them in context for which they are not proper ... as is the case with having ANY sex outside of marriage.
It starts by forgetting that He is Holy (Holy, Holy) and righteous, excusing “my” sin because it’s not that bad (though it is that bad).
It is, after all, only after people have not retained the knowledge of God that they are turned over to reprobate minds. That is not something the truly ignorant face.
Sitting unconverted in a pew week after week, awash in the gospel that would save you if only you would repent, is an exceedingly dangerous place to be. Likewise, being in a nation where the Gospel has been so widely known and also being unrepentant is a far more dangerous place to be than in some pagan land not awash in the knowledge of His only salvation.
Americans in particular HAVE NO EXCUSE. Not unlike how the Jews who refused to believe had no excuse.
Situational ethics... They must believe that the Ten Commandments are Multiple Choice.
For starters, traditional marital vows require us to forsake all others and the vast majority of us do (about 80% of women and 70% of men according to the most liberal surveys).
Even among the respective 20% and 30% who stray, the number of extra marital partners are numbered in the single or low double digits, not dozens or even hundreds as is the rule among homosexuals. FWIW, most reliable surveys put the monogamy rate among homosexuals in the 3% TO 7% range with lesbians clustering around the higher end and gays around the lower end.
Transient sexual relationships lead inevitably to transient family relationships, regardless of what the Hollywood propaganda on shows like Modern Family tell you.
My theology is very simple. God told us how to live, and he used the Bible to do that.
When my preferences and the Bible’s perfect guidance conflict, which does happen, I assume God got it right, and I’m wrong. I cannot imagine taking any other perspective. Even when I end up doing what I want, I know I’m wrong, and I try to do better the next time. Of course God is correct. Of course I am wrong. Again. Of course my life will be better if I follow His word than if I follow my own urges.
Helping gay people to understand the Bible is the opposite of hate. I have never had any temptation at all to enter a gay relationship, but I have been on the receiving end of religious advice that I chose not to follow:
I have for decades known a very nice Jew who wanted me to follow at least some religious dietary guidelines, including avoiding pork. I discussed that topic with him in a polite and friendly manner many times, and some of his reasoning made sense to me. Whether I agreed with his perspectives (USDA inspections are imperfect, and I am sure to occasionally under-cook pork, unless I always overcook it to the point that it is dry and not pleasant to eat), or disagreed (he believed it was sinful for me to eat pork, even though I am not Jewish), I didn’t pretend that his words were “hate”. Him wanting me to understand God’s message, with its theological and medical support, and follow God’s word was a sign of love. I took it as such, even when I disagreed with him.
Yep... but they may move to outlaw the Bible... and make the ‘Queen James Bible’ the only legal one. They could ban it under hate speech / illegal / terrorist content.
I hear you.
For some time now I’ve been saying, in reference to 1 Corinthians 1:26, that if The Lord had wanted to save all the “great and good” (as the world counts them) all He would have had to do was give a gospel that only they could attain to and then they would have marched in in droves, while patting themselves on the back that they were clever enough to get it.
But God put the proverbial cookies on the bottom shelf where anyone can reach for it. He, for His glory, gave a Gospel that is simple (part of why, or so I’m persuaded, it is called an offense to the world) and even where it is is hard only requires the faith like the faith of a child. And what is that? I’m persuaded that it is trust, for that is what small children do: they trust their parent. Like this hypothetical dialog ...
Christian: Lord I just don’t understand free will and sovereignty, or how propitiation works...
God: I know. My Son took care of all of the hard stuff when He died on the cross for your sins, when He was buried and for your hope he has risen and is to return. Do you trust Me?
To every protest we raise, for there are hard things, He can and does always ask “Do you trust Me?”
As you said: He is right and that’s just all there is to it.
His children trust Him. It doesn’t mean we don’t struggle: small children struggle to do most everything too.
This is why I may seem to have so little patience with those who preach compromise and accommodation. Especially about things that are, or at least should be, obvious (as opposed to things that are not so). They what me to trust them, and ultimately their father, and not my Father.
And that just rubs me the wrong way. I’ve already got enough serious issues to deal with of my own without taking on someone else’s issues!
This is some serious delusion to believe that God doesn’t damn homosexuals, among others (Literal translation):
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The King James Version euphemistically calls sodomites (arsenokoites) “abusers of themselves with mankind.”
They’re essentially committing the horrific crime against God of false prophecy, calling God a liar, claiming He didn’t say something He said, and claiming He said something He didn’t say. Christ condemned all false prophets to hell in Matthew 7:15-23. This would include all “Christians” who agree with the oxymoronic “homosexual Christians” since they’re also falsely prophesying. Unless all of them repent, their fate is sealed.
“...a behavior that is plainly condemned in the Old and New Testaments – I’m talking about same-sex cohabitation – is now blessed by God.”
I’m not sure just where same sex “cohabitation” is condemned. It used to be nothing unusual for two men or two women who are still single to share a house until one or both marry. I don’t recall anyone saying that the bible condemned that or is it just another case of being too lazy to use the correct wording and just saying whatever?
No need to re-write what isn't read to begin with.
Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus niv
18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
I’m mostly back. I don’t drink very often and my liver processes alcohol quickly. Apologies.
Actually it was something called “Hurricane Force 5 malt liquor”. It tasted better than it sounds, but it still took me for a loop.
I am not someone who can stomach any sort of alcohol (really bad stomach). I guess the good news is that it forces me to stay sober. The bad news is that it forces me to stay sober.
I guess if you’re going to imbibe in Malt Liquor, perhaps better to go with something that’s more like a gentle breeze. :-P
The health risks of gay sex link is dead.
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