Posted on 01/09/2016 8:42:14 PM PST by randita
OTTUMWA, Iowa — Donald J. Trump sharply escalated his rhetoric about Senator Ted Cruz’s eligibility to be president on Saturday, suggesting that because he was born in Canada there were unanswered questions about whether he met the constitutional requirement to be a “natural-born citizen.’’
“You can’t have a person who’s running for office, even though Ted is very glib and he goes out and says ‘Well, I’m a natural-born citizen,’ but the point is you’re not,†Mr. Trump said while campaigning in Clear Lake, Iowa.
Mr. Cruz was born in Calgary, Canada, to an American mother, which automatically conferred American citizenship. Most legal experts agree that satisfies the requirement to be a “natural-born citizen,’’ a term that was not defined by the founders.
Mr. Trump, who began raising questions about Mr. Cruz’s ability to be president earlier in the week, said on Saturday that Mr. Cruz would have to go to court to get a “declaratory judgment†about his eligibility “or you have a candidate who just cannot run.’’ (Mr. Cruz could need a judgment if someone filed a lawsuit to challenge his candidacy and a court agreed to take up the question.)
With polls showing the race in Iowa tightening, and Mr. Cruz leading Mr. Trump by 4 percentage points in a Fox News poll released on Friday, Mr. Trump has returned to an issue that first gained him notoriety years ago when he challenged President Obama’s citizenship.
On Saturday night, before the final stop on a six-day bus tour of Iowa, Mr. Cruz said: “Under longstanding federal law, the child of a U.S. citizen born abroad is a natural-born citizen.â€
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
a rock solid conservative who is well versed in the Constitution-
........................................................
A rock solid conservative? Did his vote to take away the powers bestowed on the Senate by the CONSTITUTION and bestow same in the presidency for the sake of a little expediency in Obama’s Treaty aspirations something a rock solid conservative would do??/ I think not!
Would his vote to involve the USA in a Treaty of Trade in which the United States is in the MINORITY and loses its SOVEREIGNTY the act of a rock solid Conservative? I think not.
Other instances abound and is it REALLY such a well versed lawyer who loses 4 out of 9 cases?
Then maybe it’s good if he feels threatened.
But I don’t want him to file suit for his own sake. I want him to file suit in such a way that Cruz can defend himself in a way that gives him discovery.
I’ve seen your posts in the past and respect you. I can’t say for sure, as I’m watching just like everybody else, but I suspect that Trump may be preparing the stage for a lawsuit during the primary which would foil Grayson’s plan and thus keep it from being a game of chicken, and would also allow Cruz to make a defense that could expose the coup of 2008, when a foreign-born man was allowed to be inaugurated. See my posts from today for more perspective on what I’m thinking.
I have said what Vattel (Law of Nations) is not and you have said what it is: "...the standard legal textbook on the subject for law schools, was cited as an authority for legal decisions more than other sources on the subject, was used to compose the Constitution, and was cited as a legal authority in a legal case as recently as 2008."
I can see not one single element of inconsistency here. A citation, a reference, an authority, a source, yes, most definitely and without fear of contradiction. But, US law? No, in the US. laws are passed by Congress and signed by the President.
I'm not trying to be flippant here. This is precisely the distinction I had in mind when I wrote my original comment.
“Somebody will surely tell him that Cruz can’t get a judicial declaration and there has to be an actual case leading to a decision.” Trump well knows that and that is why he is attempting to pose it as he’s just being concerned for Cruz, all the while spending lots of time pushing the narrative.
Some personalities take things personal. Like the growing prospect of losing Iowa.
Cruz is unlikely to take Trump’s baiting or bashing by inference, personally.
Someone on FR mentioned that the polls are not showing Trump getting any kind of bump for his inferences against Cruz in Iowa. I did not take the time to bookmark that poll info, so can not pull it back up.
Trump knows he has to run the table. He knows if he goes to the convention without a clear majority the Convention delegates are unlikely to be so easily swayed as the general public seemingly is by his self painted aurora.
“I’m not trying to be flippant here. This is precisely the distinction I had in mind when I wrote my original comment.”
I understood that, which is why I couldn’t understand why you would have made the statement. Obviously legislation is written and does not incorporate a legal treatise, unless authorizing it as a legal reference like Black’s Law Dictionary. In other words, the only way a legal treatise like Vattel’s Law of Nations is going to find its way into the Constitution and statutes as the law of the United States is by incorporating its ideas and perhaps some of its phrases, and that is exactly what we are seeing. I had to ask because I’ve seen so many people on FR try to marginalize Vattel’s work as being unknown and inconsequential, which is about as opposite from the truth as it can get. of course they do so to avoid the natural conclusion his definition of natural born citizen was incorporated into the constitution.
We need a leader. Unfortunately, America has become so socialist it can’t stand a successful man. He might ruffle some feathers. SAD!
I will not vote for Cruz.
Exactly.
And Ted Cruz, being a noble, Constitutional scholar, with a lifelong love for this country, and deep devotion to conservative principles WOULD NOT BE RUNNING FOR POTUS IF ELIGIBILITY WERE AN ISSUE.
Will the democRATS try to make an issue out of it -of course. They will attack- It's what they do.
Is it an issue.
Nope.
Ted Cruz's mother was born and raised in the U.S.A . She is a U.S. citizen.
She was a U.S. citizen when she married Ted's father.
She was a U.S. citizen when they moved to Canada to work.
She was a U.S. citizen when Ted Cruz was born.
This made Ted Cruz a Natural Born U S. citizen eligible to be POTUS.
His mother is a U.S. citizen today.
Trump trying to cause doubt by distorting the issue is to be expected I suppose.
We aren't voting for the winner of "American Idol". We are voting for who should be president of the United States.
I don't make my choice for POTUS based on fear of democrat attacks.
They will attack whoever the nominee is, with everything they've got.
I think Cruz is absolutely the best candidate to help turn this nation around. I pray daily that he will be our next president, and that the Lord will remove all obstacles from him, in accordance with His will.
A green card is a permit to reside and work in the United States, without becoming a “citizen” of the United States.
Cruz senior became a Canadian Citizen before Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz was born. Because of that, Ted Cruz’s status as a natural born citizen fails the strict definition intended by the Founders. The only explicit definition of “natural born citizen” in the historical record was provided by one of the Founders: David Ramsay. Historian Ramsey defines it as meaning a person born in the country to citizen parents. No testimony from any other Founder or delegate of the Constitutional Convention exists that claims any other definition.
In 1790, the first Congress deemed all persons born of two United States citizen parents abroad to be “natural born citizens,” but the words “natural born” were repealed in 1795. Congress never again legislated the definition of “natural born citizen,” and no United States statute currently defines the term or even mentions it. The intended meaning stays with the Constitutional Convention of 1776 that is used in Ramsay’s 1789 essay, “A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen,” as its authoritative guide to what is a natural born citizen.
“And Ted Cruz, being a noble, Constitutional scholar, with a lifelong love for this country, and deep devotion to conservative principles WOULD NOT BE RUNNING FOR POTUS IF ELIGIBILITY WERE AN ISSUE.”
You don’t know that. Many Republicans who were ineligible due to not being natural born citizens have campaigned for President, and Chester Arthur won election despite being ineligible. We have no reason to believe Senator Cruz would not do so given the way he is being dishonest about his ineligibility.
“Will the democRATS try to make an issue out of it -of course. They will attack- It’s what they do.”
Which is why they must not be given the opportunity to succeed by giving them such an obviously ineligible candidate.
“Is it an issue. Nope.”
That is a obvious lie, and it requires no subjectivity to find it so. The lawsuits from the Democrats have already been prepared according to the news reports, so it was already “an issue” before Trump said anything about it recently.
“Ted Cruz’s mother was born and raised in the U.S.A .”
“She is a U.S. citizen.”
Probably, but you certainly cannot know for certain without examining her U.S. Passport. What other citizenship doe she have? You don’t know, because you are in no position to know one way or the other.
“She was a U.S. citizen when she married Ted’s father.”
So it seems.
“She was a U.S. citizen when they moved to Canada to work.”
Yes.
“She was a U.S. citizen when Ted Cruz was born.”
She probably was, because she was probably not in Canada long enough to be naturalized as a Canadian citizen by the time Ted Cruz was born. Still, you cannot say that for a fact. How can you prove she didn’t start the Permanent Residence status on earlier visits we haven’t heard about yet?
“This made Ted Cruz a Natural Born U S. citizen eligible to be POTUS.”
On the contrary, those facts definitely make Ted Cruz not a natural born U.S. citizen. He acquired U.S. citizenship by the authority of the statutory laws for immigration and naturalization. The Constitution did not and could not grant the U.S. Government the power to make and naturalize a person who is already a natural born citizen as a natural born citizen. The Constitution granted the U.S. Government only the power to make a uniform system of naturalization for the purpose of naturalizing aliens to become citizens. Ted Cruz was born with an alien citizenship that disqualified him from being eligible as a natural born citizen. His acquisition of the right to elect or not elect after birth to claim U.S. citizenship at birth was governed by the U.S. Statutes regarding immigration and naturalization of alien born persons.
“His mother is a U.S. citizen today.”
Probably, but how can you know whether or not she was and may still be a Canadian citizen in addition to being a U.S. citizen. We know Rafael Cruz naturalized as a Canadian citizen shortly after Ted Cruz was born. This fact indicates Rafael had to already have been a Canadian Permanent Resident when Ted Cruz was born. We also know Ted Cruz could not have been born with the Canadian citizenship we know he had unless one or both parents were Canadian citizens or Canadian permanent Residents when he was born. the Canadian laws says so. Since Rafael Cruz had to have been a Canadian Permanent Resident, his wife, Eleanor, must have almost certainly been a Permanent Canadian Resident as well to keep from derailing Rafael Cruz’s path to Canadian citizenship. Since Rafael completed his naturalization as a Canadian citizen, there is good reason to suspect and expect his wife would also have done so at the same time. So, you have no means of knowing whether or not she was also a Canadian citizen when she returned to the United States with her family.
“Trump trying to cause doubt by distorting the issue is to be expected I suppose.”
Trump didn’t “distort the issue,” because the issue was there long before Trump announced his own campaign last year.
“We aren’t voting for the winner of “American Idol”. We are voting for who should be president of the United States.”
That’s right, and you cannot succeed at suppressing the truth that Ted Cruz cannot possibly be a natural born citizen by using the Constitutional power of the Congress to govern a uniform system of naturalizing aliens as U..S. citizens.
“I don’t make my choice for POTUS based on fear of democrat attacks.”
Fidelity with our oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, does not give us the latitude to subvert the Constitutional rule of law just to satisfy your desire to misrepresent the natural born citizen clause for political gain.
If the Dems bring it up so be it.. But Trump even though I like a lot of what he says.. I don’t like giving the Dems Ammunition.. Trump is ahead he don’t need to attack the Republican behind him.. It makes him look small!!! If he keeps attacking Ted Cruz and ends up winning I will not support him!!! I don’t trust him anyway.. Maybe you need to read his book the art of the Deal. He will deal with the Democrats. He will not build a wall. He won’t deport anyone.. He will make a deal!!!
Thanks for filling me in. Like I didn't know what a green card is! LOL!
Cruz senior became a Canadian Citizen before Rafael Edward "Ted" Cruz was born.
Untrue. And irrelevant.
Because of that, Ted Cruz's status as a natural born citizen fails the strict definition intended by the Founders.
That is a matter of opinion, not fact. Be careful about stating opinions as if they were facts. It's a bad practice.
The only explicit definition of "natural born citizen" in the historical record was provided by one of the Founders: David Ramsay. Historian Ramsey defines it as meaning a person born in the country to citizen parents. No testimony from any other Founder or delegate of the Constitutional Convention exists that claims any other definition.
Interesting but without substantial weight.
In 1790, the first Congress deemed all persons born of two United States citizen parents abroad to be "natural born citizens," but the words "natural born" were repealed in 1795. Congress never again legislated the definition of "natural born citizen," and no United States statute currently defines the term or even mentions it.
Yep, I believe that here you are setting forth fact.
The intended meaning stays with the Constitutional Convention of 1776 that is used in Ramsay's 1789 essay, "A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen," as its authoritative guide to what is a natural born citizen.
And here you stray back into your habit of stating opinion as fact. And I say again, that's a bad practice. In my opinion.
“.. How can a law change the Constitution! If we accept that Natural Born Citizen has morphed through simple laws by Congress, ..”
I believe you are sincere, but most of the Cruz birthers are all over the place, because they have another favorite candidate, but to answer your question..........
Where is Natural Born Citizen defined in the Constitution? I can’t find it there. Can you?
I did find this though:
“Natural born citizen defined
Our constitution doesn’t specifically define “natural born citizen†but is framed in English common law in effect at the time, and under English common law the term “natural born citizen†is understood to be a citizen at birth.
Blackstone defined “natural born subjects†as those born within the dominions of England, as amended by statute.
snip
The Naturalization Act of 1790, passed just 12 months after our constitution became effective in 1789, undoubtedly reflects the understanding of “natural born citizen†in effect in that era, and states:
And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens: Provided, that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States…
excerpt http://www.cafeconlecherepublicans.com/is-ted-cruz-a-natural-born-citizen/
What opinion was stated as fact?
According to a authenticated time line:
1970—Ted Cruz is born in Canada, to two parents who had lived in Canada for at least four years at that time, and had applied for and received Canadian citizenship under Canadian Immigration and Naturalization laws, as stated by Rafael Cruz. As a result, U.S. statutes would have voided the prior “green card” status which requires among other things, permanent residency within the United States and obviously, not becoming a citizen of another country during the time frame of the U.S. green card.
Wow. The more I dig into this the worse it becomes. Both parents had become naturalized as Canadian citizens! I don’t think the Founders would have likes that, John.
“3 US solicitors general (conservative, liberal & libertarian) as well as liberal Laurence Tribe & conservation Mark Levin (among many other constitutional scholars) disagree with you.”
Yup. But yet some Trump supporters lie to themselves, and sometimes others, because they want Trump.
Shame on them, and ESPECIALLY shame on Trump, for his dirty politics.
Instead of talking about Obama’s gun grab, and the rest, we are taling about a NONissue.
However, I think it’s helping Cruz. Most people can see through the crapola.
As far as I know, none of what you are stating as fact is true. I’m willing to be convinced but not on your say-so.
If you have ANY evidence that Ted Cruz’s mother became a Canadian citizen, I’d like to see it.
Similarly, if you have ANY evidence that Rafael Cruz became a Canadian citizen at a date prior to the birth of Ted Cruz, I’d like to see that too. if you don’t want to post it, you can send to me by private message.
I have tried to find any such evidence to refute the kind of allegations I am seeing from you and I have found nothing to indicate that you are right, and unfortunately, I have found no solid reference to disprove what you are saying, either.
Right now I am relying on the candidates statements, but I’d like more.
As for opinions stated as fact I think I was explicit in pointing them out and none of them are related in this latest post.
You said: “The most recent law of all does not apply. The Constitution cannot be changed on the whim of a few politicians temporarily in the majority in congress. There is a very long, drawn out affair which is required called an Article V Convention.”
...............
So, according to you, the recent law does not apply, NOR does the oldest law, which has been posted many times on this forum.
Geroge Washington SIGNED this bill and he was a Founding Father. The First Congress CONSISTED of our Founding Fathers.
Cruz IS a Natural Born Citizen through blood - his mom:
“United States Congress, “An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization†(March 26, 1790).
snip
And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens:
Provided, that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also, that no person heretofore proscribed by any States, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, except by an Act of the Legislature of the State in which such person was proscribed.”
It doesn’t say that the Father has to be a citizen; it says the father only has to be a resident.
Sen. Cruz’s mother, of course, was born in the U.S.A., so was a Natural Born Citizen which makes Ted Cruz a Natural Born Citizen.
Again, this is what George Washington signed.
So do you think George Washington, et al, would have changed their minds so soon?
It seems you don’t like the old law, and you don’t like the newest law either:
“The bottom line in the case of Cruz, who was born in Canada in 1970, is that his father was an immigrant from Cuba and not a U.S. citizen at the time of young Cruz’s birth, but his mother was born and raised in the United States. The law in effect then, and now, made Ted Cruz a U.S. citizen at birth.
Please check out the law: “8 U.S. Code 1401, that spells out in detail who is a citizen. (snip) And then there are the people who are born outside the United States to one parent who is a U.S. citizen and the other who is an alien, provided the citizen parent lived in the United States or its possessions for at least five years, at least two of them after age 14. ..”
more at: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/spokesman-senator-cruz-is-a-u.s.-citizen-by-birth/article/2523832
We do need a leader. We do not need a boss.
Tragically, America has indeed become rather Socialist, and Trump has been a beneficiary of that drift toward statism. I have no faith that he will do anything about that particular problem. I do think he would secure the borders and he would institute policies that would help resist the Muslim hejira. Those are on the plus side. I am far from confident that he will act within the law.
America needs change but getting rid on one narcissistic, egomaniacal personality cult leader only to replace him with another narcissistic, egomaniacal personality cult leader is not the kind of change I am working for.
I don’t know if I could vote for Trump, even considering the alternatives. What I do know is that I will do every moral and ethical thing that I can do to make certain that Americans never have to face that frightening day.
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