Posted on 11/24/2015 1:45:02 PM PST by SeekAndFind
If you’re worried that Turkey’s going to use Article 5 of NATO to drag the U.S. and other western nations into a hot war with Russia, don’t be. Sounds from this response like NATO will fall apart before anyone goes to the mat for the Turks.
NATO ambassadors called on Ankara to show “cool-headedness” on Tuesday following an emergency meeting in Brussels, after Turkey shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border, diplomats said.
Diplomats present at the meeting told Reuters that while none of the 28 NATO envoys defended Russia’s actions, many expressed concern that Turkey did not escort the Russian warplane out of its airspace.
On the one hand, this wasn’t the first violation of Turkish airspace lately by a Russian jet. Erdogan’s complained about it to NATO before; NATO’s secretary-general said last month that the frequency and duration of the intrusions made it hard to believe Russia isn’t doing it purposefully. Turkey got tired of asking Russia nicely to stay out — and asking, and asking, as they reportedly warned the pilots of the jet that was brought down today 10 times in five minutes to scram ASAP. (Did Russia actually violate their airspace today, though? Moscow denies it.) On the other hand, the point of Article 5 obviously isn’t to trigger a regional war because a Russian jet en route to a target in Syria strayed a mile into Turkish territory or whatever it was. The paradigm case for Article 5 is hundreds of Russian tanks rolling towards Warsaw or Berlin, not one jet being a little too cute about Russia’s new hegemony in western Syria. Show of hands: Who thinks Europe’s militaries are going to spring into action after a long hiatus from major wars to enforce the integrity of Turkish airspace to the last inch?
Putin called the shootdown a “stab in the back” by western allies who are supposed to be fighting ISIS with him and warned of “very serious consequences,” but he might be willing to endure one embarrassment without retaliating in the name of avoiding escalation. Would he be willing to endure two, though?
Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead the two pilots of a Russian jet downed by Turkish warplanes near the border with Turkey on Tuesday as they descended with parachutes, a deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters.
“Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air,” Alpaslan Celik, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade said near the Syrian village of Yamadi as he held what he said was a piece of a pilot’s parachute.
Turkmen are ethnic Turks in Syria who have no association with the state of Turkey, but that’s not the point. The point is that killing the pilots, while they were defenseless on their way to the ground, will make the affront of the jet being shot down sting even more in Russia. And there’s actually yet another incident in Syria today that the Kremlin can use for anti-western propaganda if it wants, and this one’s on video too. Watch the clip below of Syrian rebels using a TOW missile, presumably supplied by Uncle Sam, to take out a Russian-made helicopter being operated by Assad’s army. RT, a Russian house organ, has already picked it up and claimed that not only was the helicopter on a search-and-rescue mission for the downed jet pilots but a Russian marine was killed in the TOW strike. Why this is circulating so widely online, apart from the gee whiz factor, I don’t know; Russia’s been bombing U.S.-allied rebels since they began flying sorties in Syria so it’s not as if America’s allies attacking Russia’s allies is some strange new escalation of the reality on the ground. The proxy war has been raging for weeks. But between the jet blowing up, the pilots being machine-gunned as they fell to earth, and now U.S. weapons being used to undermine the Russian/Syrian “counterterrorist” effort, there’s ample reason to think things will get worse before they get better. I’m just grateful we’ve got Cool Hand Luke in the White House, laying down “red lines” he doesn’t intend to enforce and issuing warnings that Assad must go which he has no means to follow through on, at the helm of this ship at it enters choppy waters.
I’m so tired of Russian trolls this shit has been going on here for years and it’s tiresome. Yes I want isis destroyed. I’m just tired of the paid Russian trolls. Did you get an extra ration of vodka and potatoes comrade. LOL
Russia is bombing ISIS and Syrian rebels who are fighting against Assad. If those rebels happen to be ethnic turks then they happen to be ethnic turks. Turkey essentially joined the conflict by shooting down the plane. It is important to see that because if Russia is to blame NATO is suppose to have their back. Turkey should not be allowed to fight in Syria via the so-called ethnic Turks and suffer no consequences in their own country. This is a plot to manipulate NATO support.
If Russia was violating Turkey’s airspace, why was the plane shot down in Syria where those rebels could shoot down the pilots? It is all very fishy.
With the right MANPADS, the PKK could start shooting down Turkish Air Force jets and choppers in Turkish airspace.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
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Because they wanted to shoot down a Russian plane. Perhaps visions of drawing NATO into the conflict on the side of Turkey and ISIS against Russia and the Kurds, and our pet Syrian rebels if there are any left.
Related threads
NATO envoys urge Turkey to show restraint after Russian warplane downed
Russian rescue helicopter 'shot down by Syrian rebels' while searching for pilots
And Obama's here with a big duhhhhhh. Does he think Russia has the right to defend it's pilots against war crimes. Lot's of potential beer summits here. Of course all the other players know Obama is a zero.
Obama: Turkey Has The Right To Defend Itself And Its Airspace
Are you crazy? That would have made sense!
This does not bode well for us.
Yes, but that would more likely escalate the conflict. Escalation may be inevitable. Who knows. I can hope not.
Nato has been dealing (ignoring) Turkish airforce incursions into Greek airspace which occur weekly.
Videos all over on youtube.
Even the Turkish information shows that the Russian plane was in Turkish territory at the most for a few minutes. It seems that Turkey was quick on the trigger on this one, probably because Russia was bombing Syrian rebels that they like.
The plane crashed in Syria. Whether or not it was in Turkish airspace at the time it was fired on is what is in question.
And it’s not all that fishy to me. The Russians have been making incursions into Turkish airspace for quite some time now as was reported last month.
Turkey got tired of playing the game. Not fishy at all.
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>> “Why didn’t you just escort that Russian plane out of your airspace?” <<
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Because it was never in their airspace, but they wanted to avenge Obama’s ‘honor.’
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Turkey was never at risk. They did this because of Russia siding with Assad. That is an offensive move no matter how much they try to hide behind technical air space borders. Obama said exactly that. He said that was the reason. The air space issue is just a way to try and make the move look defensive, thereby obligating NATO to back them up.
More like a defensive response. In recent months, the Turks have killed hundreds of Kurds inside Turkey via air attack.
Do we as a people grant mercy to our captives? Would we desire it also be shown to our own? That we are dealing with an ideology that offers no quarters should not reduce us to thinking as they do. My savior guides my personal opinion on this. It's one of the things that leads me to believe the Muslim deity is antithetical to my own.
Shooting the pilots was against the Geneva Convention.
Then they shot down the rescue helicopter.
Collective support is the obligation. Barry will send some of his White House beer. The new Trudeau up north will do the same. I don't see much happening. Best Ergodan can look forward to is dining with infidels.
Which doesn't change the fact that you'd be a war criminal. Can't shoot a pilot (or sailor) once he's abandoned his craft. You can shoot paratroopers, even if they've abandoned their plane.
Yep!
Presuming Russia has an agreement with Assad, who does head a UN member state, they have every reason to shoot down offending aircraft. From Turkey or anyone else.
Only is this wrong is right paradigm that the radical left has ushered in is an attack considered defensive. Turkey attacked the plane. The plane did not attack Turkey. Ethnics Turks riddled the pilots, the pilots killed no Turks that day. Facts hurt. NATO should offer condolences and apologies to Russia for one of its members acting belligerent. Fine Turkey to make Russia whole. Then immediately suspend Turkey's membership pending a review and probationary sentence. Any further conflicts or detrimental actions on behalf of parties hostile to NATO provide grounds for permanent expulsion.
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