Police Bullets Hit Bikers During the Waco Police Shootout

The Atlantic ^ | 09/22/2015 | Conor Friedersdorf

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Cops in the Texas city shot motorcyclists, arrested all the witnesses, and have since prohibited them from speaking out under penalty of contempt.

Four months after a shootout left 9 bikers dead at the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas, prompting the arrest of 177 people, many of them presumably innocent, authorities are still denying the public access to key pieces of evidence, including video. The legal fate of arrestees still hangs in the balance. And it still isn’t known how many of the dead bikers were killed by bullets that police officers fired.

But police bullets did hit some of the bikers, the Associated Press reports after reviewing 8,800 pages of evidence apparently leaked to the news organization. “The gunfire included rounds fired by police that hit bikers, though it isn't clear whether those rifle shots caused any of the fatalities,” Emily Schmall reports. “Investigators have offered scant details about what sparked the fight or how the gunfire played out, and no one has been charged.” 18 bikers were wounded but survived the melee.

[T-Bone Texan]

Because we already know that the local Waco PD was prepositioned around the area along with federal agents who have since melted into the landscape.

That is not in dispute by most folks. The Waco PD spokesman inadvertantly admitted as much early on, before the narrative changed.

Are you pro murder?

[null and void]

That was unexpected...

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[catfish1957]

Becoming more like a plot line from Sons of Anarchy every day.

[Lady Heron]

“The gunfire included rounds fired by police that hit bikers, though it isn't clear whether those rifle shots caused any of the fatalities,”

BS

[thefactor]

The fact that police asked the restaurant to not host the event and were refused is not in dispute. The fact that the police were there in order to act as a deterrent to biker gang violence is not in dispute.

Having police there as a deterrent and saying that the cops were there planning to ambush and murder bikers are two different things entirely. And, quite honestly, is a stupid comparison to make.

[don-o]

prompting the arrest of 177 people, many of them presumably innocent

Every single one of the 177 are presumed innocent.

snip from article

Lawyers in the case have seen “dashboard video of people fleeing the scene while shots ring out, audio of police threatening to shoot people if they rise from the ground and photos of bodies lying in pools of blood in the restaurant parking lot,” AP adds.

I must have missed the part about the lawyers having seen....in the AP story referenced. There WERE at least two different versions that I saw.

I wonder if "lawyers" means prosecutors?

[don-o]

The Waco PD spokesman inadvertantly admitted as much early on, before the narrative changed.

Stroman statement that has been scrubbed from Waco PD facebook

As fr as I have seen, Waco PD had not commented in detail about their precise positioning. Stroman DID say they were sitting in their vehicles when the first shots were fired.

[don-o]

the Associated Press reports after reviewing 8,800 pages of evidence apparently leaked to the news organization.

I was sure I had seen two different versions of the AP report on Friday. Here is a third from usnews

APNewsBreak: Evidence shows Waco police bullets hit bikers in May melee, unclear if any fatal

Which includes this detail that was not in the other two versions I saw on Friday....

Authorities did not know exactly what to do with the large number of weapons and "just started laying them on the ground away from the suspects," officer Joshua Fischer wrote in a report.

This tends to confirm what The Aging Rebel reported from an eyewitness; that weapons were being piled up on the ground. Is all of that evidence tainted?

[don-o]

another snip from same link

Police and prosecutors have said that there is video footage that shows Bandidos and Cossacks shooting at one another. The AP has reviewed video from Twin Peaks and an adjacent restaurant, but neither shows clearly who is shooting at whom.

No wonder Reyna needed that gag order.

Now again arises the question of the source of the leak. The OP mentions "lawyers." Broden said in court on Friday that he did not leak it. But, that does not preclude the possibility that, if it was leaked TO defense lawyers, then one of them leaked it to the AP. But who was the original leaker?

[Robert Teesdale]

What would happen if one of them talked anyway and forced the judge to jail them?

What would happen if the local BATFE SAC was subjected to domestic rendition and enhanced interrogation by a cell of grimly serious patriots? What unusual intelligence might be produced regarding the facts of the situation?

We're not there yet, you say, for such tactics to emerge in our current low intensity conflict?

Why, you're quite right. We aren't.

Not yet, at least. But I dare say that all's fair in love and war, and what one Administration justifies in the name of war, patriots may find justified in the name of love.

You can't stop people from being people, after all. When things get hot enough, they get hot enough.

Just my $.02.

[Robert Teesdale]

Nobody has been charged yet. They stand accused, most incarcerated for about a month, most currently subject to bail conditions and out whatever it cost in out of pocket plus incidental losses (like lost job), and most will not be charged.

Cboldt is correct. This is something called "punishment by process".

The presumption of innocence that attaches to trial proceedings isn't any help at all, doesn't even come into play until a person is indicted or otherwise charged with committing a crime.

"You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride." It is a disingenuous way of meting out summary and extrajudicial punishment without the involvement of judicial oversight.

"Shot trying to escape" is another way it's put...

[Robert Teesdale]

Having police there as a deterrent and saying that the cops were there planning to ambush and murder bikers are two different things entirely. And, quite honestly, is a stupid comparison to make.

It is not stupid. It is damning to law enforcement, yes. And it is a reasonable explanation, considering how law enforcement conducts itself in this nation at both the local and national level.

[treetopsandroofs]

“I suspect all of them were hit by police bullets which is why the police don’t want to release any information to anyone.”

No, because SMALL, MEDIUM and LARGE, and witnesses said police probably SAVED lives.

/s

[Cboldt]

-- The fact that the police were there in order to act as a deterrent to biker gang violence is not in dispute. --

If they intended to act as a deterrent, they failed their mission.

I can think of several actions that the police could have taken, but didn't take, that would have been more effective at deterrence.

The police claim to have probable cause of conspiracy to commit aggravated assault or worse. Given that, they can arrest before things get violent. I have read that some of the troublemakers on the biker side had open warrants on other charges. A few arrests would have put the rest of the crowd on good behavior.

[sport]

Well, yeah. If the police released the video, it will show Cossacks and Banditos shooting at each other. They finally edited the video to where it matches their version of the incident. There is nothing new there. It was known all along that when the police got the video to match their version of the incident, the video[s] would start magically appearing.

[don-o]

The fact that the police were there in order to act as a deterrent to biker gang violence is not in dispute.

Perhaps more vigorous action could have actually deterred the violence. Showing up, parking at some (unspecified) distance from the TP and sitting in their cars is the lowest possible level of deterrence.

Affidavits submitted in property seizure proceedings state that dash cams show ominous movements from Cossacks on the patio as Bandidos rolled in. THAT would have been the time to escalate the deterrence.

Get out of your cars and key your loudspeaker!!!

I question whether cops had a handle on what was actually happening in real time.

[sport]

I hope that the police don’t start saving lives in Plant City then. Or as least announce the day they are going to save lives.

[don-o]

No, because SMALL, MEDIUM and LARGE, and witnesses said police probably SAVED lives. /s

Well played.

[arthurus]

When the police get a bit less paranoid about letting people know what went down, I may start to believe that stuff, depending on test results and the like. They are acting like they are trying to prevent or put off discovery of something that does not redound to police credit at all.

[House Atreides]

Lots and lots of holes for the police firing 12 rounds.