Posted on 06/11/2015 10:04:02 AM PDT by Olog-hai
A survey published by the Pew Research Center on Wednesday showed that the majority of Germans would be against their country using military means to defend a NATO ally against Russian aggression.
Despite the notion that an attack on one is an attack on all being enshrined as Clause 5 in the NATO Charter, 58 percent of Germans said they would be against helping a NATO member on the border with Russia militarily.
Only 38 percent of Germans said they would agree with the triggering of Clause 5 under such circumstances. …
(Excerpt) Read more at thelocal.de ...
“...the majority of Germans would be against their country using military means to defend a NATO ally against Russian aggression.”
...but would fully expect everyone else in NATO to come to Germany’s aid if Germany were attacked.
Luckily Poland knows that it won’t have to fight alone, if invaded again by Russia.
Hungary has. Poland has. You don't see anyone messing with them.
My point is that Poland wouldn’t need help. They’d defend themselves, and as a result, invaders would avoid them.
The question isn't entirely facetious - NATO should, in my opinion, be restructured to reflect the major political changes within formerly sovereign nations since NATO first was formed. Moreover, how, exactly, "North Atlantic" includes such EU and non-EU members as Greece and Turkey (1952), the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland (1999), Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia (2004), and Albania and Croatia (2009) is a little difficult to imagine.
Were it not for the rekindling of Russian imperialism of late this conversation would probably have taken place already. Germany is currently obligated to go to war should Poland be invaded (the irony is probably best left unexplored) but its citizens don't want to. This is not a cosmetic problem, it strikes at the very core of NATO's purpose. Best to get that settled now before the organization experiences a critical strain and fails.
Both of those are EU member states. Both are also very pro-EU military.
They asked the wrong question. The should have asked if the Germans want Poland for lebensraum. Maybe cut a deal with Pooty-Poot to split Poland?
LOL, you don’t get this at all do you?
Your simplistic view reveals ignorance of why NATO is necessary, and why those tiny nations are glad to be in NATO, and why we are glad to have them there.
They are in a defense Pact, ours, and we don’t want Russian forces reconquering those countries and moving their Armies into them and recreating what we all worked so hard, at such high cost, to defeat.
On the other side of things, NATO being used as a hammer to smash the former Yugoslavia is a big propaganda talking point in Russia these days, especially in light of George H.W. Bush’s promise to Russia that none of the former Soviet bloc states would be interfered with by NATO (broken by Clinton). That whole mess was precipitated by Helmut Kohl recognizing the independence of Croatia and Slovenia. (Remember that the actions of the politicians in Germany remain distinct and insulated from public opinion.)
NATO has been run by the European Union since the 1990s, basically.
This proves the folly of having added a dozen new members to NATO since the fall of the old Soviet Union. Most are small Eastern European states with bitter grudges to settle against Moscow while lacking the common historical ties which bound the original NATO countries together. Western Europeans will not go to war over any of these tiny new countries, and it was a cynical lie to ever claim that they would. Inflation cheapens things, and NATO has cheapened its membership to the point of worthlessness.
Seems very Molotov-Ribbentrop era. And the media is still talking up the “Europe is like the 1930s again” angle.
So now Poland can handle Russia alone, and should, according to you, so in your dreams, Russia first takes Ukraine and consolidates it’s gains, refreshes it’s military and moves them up to the Polish border, and then we let them take Poland.
You have an interesting set of goals planned out for Russia, you must despise what Reagan did to them.
Sure.
Poor Moscow just minding its own business, while those aggressive Eastern European countries with their "grudges to settle" are looking for a fight.
It is wise that we removed those nations from Russian control, and made them part of NATO.
NATO will fight for NATO, regardless of where your personal loyalties lie, as you propagandize against us.
Ad hominem assaults upon my “loyalty” are just cheap attempts to drown out my words. It is my observation is that the over-expanded NATO will not hold together under stress. That is not a wish; it is an opinion. And it looks like European public opinion is breaking down as I have predicted.
(V)oice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.The EU certainly learned that lesson from Goering and applied it. The elites always operate independently from public opinion over there, and even shape public opinion.
Why, of course the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.From the same interview with Goering in 1946.
You made your own anti-American propaganda post, I didn’t make it for you.
NATO is holding, and will hold, and we will defeat your man in Russia, if he invades our NATO borders.
Even while you work to weaken American resolve.
What’s it like to be so thin skinned and insecure that you feel the need to impugn the motives of anyone whose opinion differs from yours. Wishing something doesn’t make it so, and I just don’t believe that the new NATO will hold together much longer.
What it’s like to be constantly attacking American and NATO resolve as you promote Russian military goals against us.
NATO will do fine, your side won’t prevail against us.
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