Posted on 06/08/2015 11:48:14 AM PDT by C19fan
As a young, openly gay Christian activist, Matthew Vines considered it a victory just to get into a room at a conservative Christian university here with four influential evangelicals who disagreed with him over what the Bible says about homosexuality.
He ended up in a polite, heartfelt three-hour debate last month over Scripture passages about topics like celibacy, eunuchs, slavery and the connections between sex and marriage.
Every single system you have within your body whether its your respiratory system, your excretory system, your muscular system can be completed as an individual, said Sean McDowell, a professor here at Biola University and a well-known Christian author and speaker. But theres only one system in which male and female have half and become a united whole, and thats in reproduction.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Scripture speaks of the Sin of Sodom as being multiple sins: (Ezekiel 16:49-50)
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
"Abomination" surely includes man-on-man sex, but that's not all it includes. Also called "abominations" in the Bible are:
There are six things the Lord hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
- Haughty eyes,
- Lying tongues,
- Hands that shed innocent blood,
- Hearts that plots wicked schemes,
- Feet that are quick to run to evil,
- False witness who utter lies, and
- Those who sow discord among kindred.
And there's more, I just got tired of typing.
The Bible does not treat homosexuality quite differently than the other sins. In fact, both in the OT and the NT, it invariably includes it in "sin lists" with many others.
St. Paul's sin catalogues, plus St. John's line-up in Revelation, all list sexual sins in with idolatry, greed, fighting, and every other kind of sin:
I don't think we should try to isolate homosexual vice as a somehow unique kind of wickedness, nor minimize the abomination of all these other sins.
I suspect some people do that because they are not personally tempted by homosexual vice, but are tempted by many of the others. For instance, who, these days, accuses himself of "abomination" for "neglecting the poor and needy" or for "sowing discord"?
Deuteronomy 22:4 says what???
Might want to double check that.
Yes, they are.
But not only them. The sin of Sodom includes other kinds of offenses as well. Medieval homilies were known to group together this triad: luxury, usury, sodomy.
As in the Decalogue, each sin listed is, in effect, at the top of a list, a genus with many species, or, if you will, a chapter heading
A woman shall not wear a mans garment, nor shall a man put on a womans clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, your God.
you are adding to james 5:4 also.
when people take the Word of God out of context or just plain fabricate scripture...it doesn’t help your cause.
I walked out of church this week because a preacher was taking two non related verses, adding them together and coming up with his very own verse and tried teaching a lesson on it.
please be careful with your handling of scripture.
you are welcome.
"Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts." |
They have not been paid their just wages. This is a sin which cries out to Heaven for vengeance. "Their cries have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts."
thanks
it is interesting in Deut 22:5 the “person” is mentioned as BEING the abomination....not the sin.
Again...you are adding words that are not there.
There are six things the Lord hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
Eyes? Tongues? Hands? Hearts? Feet? Does God call these body parts "abominations," and not the actions which are signified? And then he lists two kinds of people: false witnesses and discord-sowers. Here the person is mentioned as being the abomination, but the meaning, surely, is to say it's their evil intent (to be false in their witness, to be sowers of discord) God is calling abominable.
So, here's the verse you cited:
Deuteronomy 22:5
"A woman shall not wear a mans garment, nor shall a man put on a womans clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, your God."
I'd say it's not a condemnation of a particular type of person (e.g. a tomboy? an actor in a play?) but the condemnation of a person with a particular sinful intention.
And what is that intention? I suppose, it could be cross-dressing for a sexually perverse reason. But some who know more Hebrew than I do, interpret the word used for 'clothing' (keliy) as meaning battle gear, and the intent of the commandment is to forbid a woman wearing warriors' garb, e.g. armor, in order to participate in battle, or a man wearing women's garb, possibly to avoid participating in battle:
Anyhow, what if the intent is that women should not be in the military? (I don't have an informed opinion on this. I am not a language expert.)
I think it's always the evil intent and act which is called an abomination, not particular organs (eyes, tongues, hands, feet) or particular people in their "being" as opposed to their sin.
(Deuteronomy 14:3-21 --- God speaks of abominable animals --- pigs, vultures, hawks, eels, bats --- but that's a whole different kettle of fish!)
Actually, in Victorian times, e.g. in the writings of Freud, homosexual, simply meant of the same sex, was an adjective not a noun, and had nothing to do with erotic activity, unless the noun to which it was applied gave it that denotation. The Victorian word would have been sodomite, though I think the word homoerotic might have gotten currency back then in more academic circles.
The Bible condemns what was traditionally in English called sodomy or buggery, but not in those words, and it is only by textual analysis (done in the patristic era and part of the common understanding of all Christian confessions until the lunacy of the past few years) that what is condemned as an abomination in Leviticus and by St. Paul, whose word arsenokoitai parallels the LXX text of Leviticus, is identified with the sin of Sodom and given the name sodomy — which name never appears in the Scriptures.
Actually, there are a number of sins which are treated the same way as buggery (to which homosexuality, in men, as the word is now used is a besetting temptation) — they are capital crimes under the Old Covenant Law and condemened again in the New Testament. Adultery, murder and witchcraft come readily to mind.
Genesis 4:10In each case, a cry against the sin arises from the earth, and reaches God, and it is God Himself who responds.
God then said: What have you done? Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground!Genesis 18:20-21
So the Lord said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down to see whether or not their actions are as bad as the cry against them that comes to me.Exodus 2:23-24
The Israelites groaned under their bondage and cried out, and from their bondage their cry for help went up to God. God heard their moaning...James 5:4
Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.
the key word being “vengeance”...you added that word of your own doing.
if you read the Word for yourself and stop relying on others to interpret it for you it helps.
you try the same with others....you post a verse and think you must explain what it means.
guess others are not as smart as you.
i’m done here.
Well done!
Thank you.
Did He ever destroy a whole city because of a murder?
Actually, the word they used (Freud used it, I just checked) is invert.
Yes, the ancient world didn’t play identity politics, did they? We were all one in those far-off days.
As you say, you’re done here. But let’s pray for each other.
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