Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
It isn't because you didn't make yourself perfectly clear from the start. Because you did -- repeatedly. And it is a damn interesting one.
It is just because the subject matter is so touchy for many people. They perceive you are a threat to the beliefs that they hang their eternal hats on.
It was never going to work as a fair debate: you are talking history and evidence and they are talking eternal salvation.
The question is, why would they see him as the Messiah at all, false OR true? And I mean: the Messiah as the Jews understood the Messiah to be. Because remember... their understanding of Messiah wasn't the same as yours today is.
So it's fair to say that Jesus didn't fit the average mold of whatever pre-conceived ideas of what their Messiah would be...
That's right! So why think of him as the Messiah at all? Why didn't they just think he was another prophet?
Amazingly Jesus was very patient with them...he knew what they had to overcome in their thinking .....and as is recorded he helped those willing to do just that.
Can you tell me anyone who understood him correctly before he was crucified?
As to if anyone of his disciples understood his intentions....oh I think so, for he clearly told them he would be "lifted up"....and the old testament is ripe about that to any who really knew it. Most didn't.
Can you name one and show me where in the Scripture you see the evidence for that?
If you read the account of this event you will see Jesus spoke clearly of what was ahead...Jesus answered Phillip... "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?.... Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?..... The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
He's being very clear about being the Son of God, but he isn't being clear about his mission. Not in this quote, anyway.
Actually Peter definitely 'got it' before the resurrection...and they 'all' knew he was a holy man as recorded........ Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”........ They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets". So you see they certainly identified him at least as a holy man of God....
Sure. No problem with that. But this is still consonant with a man whose mission is to be the King of Israel. In fact, descended from King David on his mother's side and God on his father's, he is the perfect candidate. A Hebrew Heracles. Royal blood.
.... He then continued... “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”..... Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”... So there it is! He got it
No, he didn't. To them, the Messiah was the man who would free Israel. Can you find one who understood that this was NOT what a Messiah is... before the crucifixion and resurrection? And I mean, understand it the way YOU understand it, not the way the Jews of the time understood it.
Well I wouldn't pass that off as not significant. The nations peoples were 'highly superstitious' at that time, they really believed that stuff.......I think they could have easily trumped the middle-ages in all the buffoonery they were involved with!
.... Heck if you look at the world even today, it's actually not much better....just hidden under the bushel. So yes, I can easily see this disturbed Pilate.....scared him in fact or he wouldn't have given it a thought if he wasn't superstitious himself....coupled with the fact he was face to face with Christ....imagine the delima he faced overall.. Pilots an interesting character in this as he's not far removed form many politicians today. He was caught between a rock and hard place.....but in the end his political position trumped everything else....a little water on the hands would turn the guilt fully over to the Jewish 'Leadership' demanding Christ's death.
(Am trying to catch up on this thread from the get go to here....you raise questions that are answerable for the most part....)
I believe you are looking at this mostly from a 'political' viewpoint..coupled with the 'religion' of that time...You are correct that the two overlapped, but mostly in the Roman and the Jewish 'Leadership' positions...more than with the people. Rather as today in our country. The people are generally the same type of masses we see today and can be easily led.
Oh, I agree with you on that one. In fact, one might almost say there was no such concept in Jewish tradition about a Holy Spirit as you perceive it today. It was invented... (you would say revealed) after Jesus was crucified.
Everything you’ve been questioning here about the [earthly] kingdom of God and Israel’s failure to comprehend that Christ had to die FIRST before this could be established can be understood in light of this actuality...
Yes, exactly! That is exactly what my point has been all along: that no one had any concept of Christ's mission being what people now think it to be ...until after it was all over, and their initial expectations were disappointed.
Do you understand the implications of this?
When Christ appears to the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) He confronts them about this very idea. Their messiah was dead. Their idea about Him setting up His kingdom came crashing down around them.
The question I keep asking is, why did they think this in the first place? Until we can come to an agreement on this, this starting point, there is no point trying to figure out anything that happened after he was crucified. First we need to understand what people thought he was doing there in the first place, and why they thought it.
No... not at first...not until the Jewish leadership sent their boys into the crowd to swing them their way....that's why it's wise to ‘focus on the leadership’ of both Rome and the Jewish leaders with the demand for Jesus’s death.....the crowd was simply manipulated like today. And of course Pilot was going to give them what they wanted.
...Pilate, knowing it was out of ‘self-interest’ that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him........’the ‘chief priests’ stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead......Wanting to satisfy ‘the crowd’..... Pilate released Barabbas to them. (Mark 15)
Pilot was aware the Jewish people were moved by their Leadership more than anything else....and that because the Leadership would have been ca-put for the following Jesus had already attained.
No, I don't think he was. He was a Roman stationed in an outpost. The locals are upset about this one guy claiming to be the son of God. Pilate's not upset because that's not against Roman law. He has nothing to lose by sentencing Jesus to death, if he wants to. He has the full support of most of the populace, apparently. The only thing Pilate might fear, according to you, is some sort of spiritual repercussion.
But anything that would suggest that is not part of what would have been public record. Do you understand what I mean? I mean the conversation between Jesus and Pilate would have been public record, so it would be unwise for any biographer 60-80 years later to make up something completely false, because they might be proven wrong by Roman records. But it's very easy to make up a conversation suggesting that Pilate's wife said something to make him uneasy.
Although in the end, it doesn't matter. Pilate's role is almost nil. He simply refused to get involved. To me the only interesting element of that whole scene is that Jesus did not admit to being the Son of God when it meant certain death, yet Christians insist he was a willing sacrifice. If he was willing, he'd have admitted it while on trial. He clearly wasn't willing.
Well no actually He didn't deny that.....rather he said, as he stood before Pilot and Pilot asked.... “Are You the King of the Jews?” ...And Jesus said to him,... “It is as you say.” Matt 27:11
Once again we see Jesus getting personal here.....with that same question that always creeps up...”who do you say that I am”. ... Only in this case Jesus is brilliantly putting it directly into Pilots lap that it is he who has framed the question of who he is. One of the reasons I love Jesus is he was a master at creating a situation where one always had to face themselves and where they were standing concerning Him...regardless of the circumstances it was always about who he is.
>> “Hasn’t happened yet, though, has it” <<
.
You in particular should be glad of that!
You are not prepared for his return.
>> “ It’s clear from the Old Testament prophecies that they thought the Messiah would save Israel from foreign rule and invasion.” <<
.
No, that is simply not true.
The kind of error you mention came later, due to their idolatry weakening their faith.
Like the rest of supposed “Christianity,” many “Hebrew Roots” groups are definitely off on the wrong foot!
Especially the ones that sport the very pagan “Star of David,” that is really the star of Solomon’s pagan wife, and the ridiculous wearing of Kippas, that were never scripturally called for.
When we stray from the pure scripture we are in deep trouble.
.
Let’s look at how historians work.
For one thing they use historical criteria to establish reliability, or historical truth. Among the criteria used by historical scholars are the criteria of multiple attestation and the criteria of embarrassment.
The empty tomb account meets both, this is part of the reason why even skeptics like Bart Ehrman have accepted the plausibility of the empty tomb.
Revelation 3
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
"Watching" is following the feasts that prepare his believers for every event of significance in his time table. He has promised to come like a thief in the night to those that do not keep his feasts, and thus have no idea what is is going on. No one that understands his feasts is looking for a secret rapture, nor expecting to sidestep the tribulation. These errors are for the fools that use words like "legalism," and "Judaizing."
One thing you are way off the mark on, Yeshua fulfilled only the three spring feasts, and nothing more. Five more feasts remain for him to fulfill, the 3 fall feasts, Chanukka, and Purim.
That is why he said Torah is to remain in full force as long as Earth remains.
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
Later? When? Show me. Prove it.
That's great. Can you show me where? Who? When?
I’m not stupid enough to try to “prove” anything to an unbeliever.
Strong Delusion is not for me to deal with.
“The question I keep asking is, why did they think this in the first place?”
It keeps coming back to understanding the ENTIRE Word of God. Man has always rejected God. From the time of Adam’s sin, to the days of Noah where the thoughts of man were evil continually, to the days of the nation of Israel, man has been a God-rejector. To wonder why they would not be looking for the kind of redeemer/king/messiah that Christ represented amid the nation’s continual rejection of God at every turn is a bit amusing. Christ is just ANOTHER instance (admittedly, the most important, but another in a long line of instances) where God was reaching out to a people who were content to “make God in their own image”. As you are concerned with the kind of king they were looking for, take a look at the story in 1st Samuel where they began to try to fashion themselves (in their own image) as a people like the nations around them:
1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
The very idea of wanting/having a king (apart from God being their king) was an afront to God. It was a rejection of Him and His sovereignty. God let them have a king...Saul. His reign was a troubled one, where he failed to have victory of the nation’s chief enemy - the Philistines. After Saul’s death, God had another king to be raised up - David (a man after God’s own heart.) He is a type of Christ. Though an imperfect sinner, his [overall] faithfulness pleased God and God gave him victory and allowed him to establish a place where a house of God could be built (though he would not build it, but his son, Solomon). After more kings came — one after another. Some good, some okay, most bad. The nation of Israel was looking for these earthly kings to bring peace to the nation, but more times than not, troubles ensued (wars, captivities, etc.) They were looking for a human king to “deliver” them. They should have been looking for God to be their king. Enter Christ.
So, to your point...What are the implications of all this? They are these:
the nation of Israel, like people today all shout: “We will not have this man to rule over us!”
the nation of Israel, like the people today all shout: “We have no king but _________(fill in the blank - the Jews said, ‘Caesar’”
The nation of Israel, people today all reject their King, who is the King of Kings, the Lord Jesus Christ. Why they weren’t expecting Him, why they had no idea what their [true] King would look like, what His entrance would be like is as old as sin itself.
What? He didn't say something in Hebrew, or Italian?
......”You say I am,” he says over and over, which is a non-answer. He won’t say YES or NO, he plays this little game because if he denies it, he’ll lose his followers, and if he confirms it, he’ll fall prey to his enemies”.....
This is a good place to resolve some of the questions you have if or not Jesus admitted who he was.....remember in every circumstance Jesus is in there are moving parties all around...there’s ‘the crowd’, ‘the deciples’ and then an ‘individual ‘will always come into view ......and it is here Jesus gets personal...
So actually we have a situation where Jesus is being accused by the Jewish leadership before Piolet.... but it’s the implication of their accusation that threatened Pilate.
Their accusation against Jesus consists of two diabolical lies:....He is teaching others to resist the payment of taxes to Rome......He is forming a rebellion to Rome’s authority by declaring himself king.
The implication is that Pilate would be betraying Rome by refusing them. They actually juxtaposed Jesus against Rome despite the fact that Jesus always respected Roman civil authority and taught the people to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar.
Pilate’s first instincts were correct. He knew the whole issue was about spiritual pride. He saw that Jesus somehow threatened their position and false piety.
The word “no” is one of the tools used to defend a personal boundary. We are required by God to say no to evil. He said “no” to their demand upon his authority.
“For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.” Matt. 27:18
During this time, Pilate also had a conversation with Jesus recorded by John. Some parts overlapped with the account of Luke.
“Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied.... “It was ‘your’ people and ‘your’ chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. (Note the disengagement from the crowd, had they been his servants they would be fighting piolet) But now my kingdom is from another place.”
“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered,... “You are right in saying I am a king..... In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth..... Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
“What is truth?” Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. “” (John 18:33-38)
Amazingly Jesus is still ministering as He steadily moves toward Roman brutality.....He is perfectly calm speaking candidly and confidently to Pilate, man to man, He adds shape to Pilate’s test and his need. .....It centers on his commitment to truth..... Pilate’s answer,.. “What is truth?”,....which sounds like he is not clear that absolute truth exists....which is unfortunate because he is going back outside ‘to defend Jesus’ before a mob of liars.
......The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.” When Pilate heard this, he was even’ more afraid’, and he went back inside the palace.
“Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer............(he had already answered this)
“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free,...... but the Jews kept shouting,.... “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.” (Therein is Piolet’s delimma.)
“When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”” (Mat. 27:24)
Like all politicians he passed the buck.
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