The New Testament clearly & unequivocally says that Jesus was the Messiah/Christ.
So, anybody who wishes to go by the title "Christian" must accept: that's what it's all about.
Put another way, if you deny it, then you are not "Christian" no matter what you may pretend.
But the Bible does not directly say that Jesus is God Himself.
Yes there are certain proof-texts which can be, and have historically been, interpreted to mean such a thing, and from there it is but a short theological hop-skip&jump to full-blown trinitarianism of God-the-Father, God-the-Son and God-the-Holy-Ghost.
And along with Trinitarianism under the state religion of the late-Roman Empire, we also begin to see persecutions & murders of those who won't buy it -- a condition which lasted more-or-less right up to the early modern era = 1,500 years.
In those days a charge of "heresy" -- or in Kevmo's delightful version (post #1,983) "God Damned Heresy" -- was a threat of murder, just as was the charge "blasphemy" in Jesus' time.
Most notorious, of course, was the Spanish Inquisition -- which officially lasted from 1478 to 1834 -- aimed primarily at former Jews & Muslims who had pretended to convert in order to continue living lawfully in Spain.
But there were many, many more persecutions throughout Christendom, beginning soon after the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD -- for 1,500 years.
The last execution for "heresy" in Great Britain was around 1700, the last in Spain in 1826 -- almost exactly 1,500 years since the Council of Nicaea.
Along with "heresy" were related crimes, such as the afore mentioned "blasphemy", plus "apostasy", "infidelity", "paganism", etc.
There are no readily available numbers for how many in total died, but in the Crusade against Cathars (southern France, 13th century) alone estimates are up to one million.
Today, these sites -- here and here -- list about 50 non-Trinitarian Christian denominations.
Yes, it is an eclectic group, most never even heard of, though some better known -- Unitarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Creation-7th Day Adventists, some Quakers, Shakers, some Pentecostals, and here's one you just have to love: Muggletonians (!), the last of whom died off naturally in 1979.
All-told, I would guess maybe-maybe 50 million non-Trinitarian Christians -- Kevmo's "God Damned Heretics" -- which is well under 5% of all Christians, but historically they included some very important people, amongst whom were many of our Founding Fathers -- Unitarian, deistically inclined Freemason Christians.
They were all "God Damned Heretics", who have our own poor Kevmo so very exercised.
And there's more here, because Trinitarianism depends for it's viability on specific interpretations of certain well-known texts, for example (as we discussed in post #1,940): John 10:30, where Jesus says: I and the Father are one.".
Well, when you research this particular passage, come to find out that one otherwise Trinitarian theologian, John Calvin, wrote:
And so, one-by-one, every Trinitarian proof-text which people like Kevmo might offer up is found not to say what they claim.
Nor does the Bible ever authorize Kevmo to declare, in Jesus Name, anybody a "God Damned Heretic".
But why would Kevmo ever need such authorization, since obviously, his job is not to bring people to Christ, but rather to drive them away.
And who is better at that?
Except here.....
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
John 14:8-13 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Matthew 1:22-23 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1 John 2:22-25 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
"Many" Founders were Unitarian? A bit of a stretch to say "many." Perhaps a confirmed "few" for sure. You have to factor in that the Enlightenment movement did not affect the American colonists as much as it did Europe. This was due to the Great Awakening, the religious revival of the 1740s, was partially responsible for cutting short the spread of deism. Below link will take you to the Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention and their church affilations:
The Fifty Five Delegates to the Constitutional Convention
Source: errantskeptics.org
If you have questions on the source quoted please let me know. He is pinged above.
But the Bible does not directly say that Jesus is God Himself.
Actually the bible does not say WHAT God “IS”....
cause literally no one knows what God IS..
Obviously God is not human.. according to lore God made humans..
God is not a spirit because God made spirits.. (whatever a spirit is)..
Next question is, is Jesus actually human?...
i.e. Did Jesus exist before he became (disguised as) human?..
What is Jesus NOW?...
All are questions no human can realistically answer..
Bible worshipers think they know.. but probably don’t...
I can’t say they are wrong because I don’t “know” these answers either..
It is conceivably possible you are not human either..
but I doubt you have any of the answers you try to imply you do..
Which is OK with me.. this planet is loaded with bull sperm..
The entertainment never stops..
You may not see immediately that the coming Bible passage holds a Physics lesson, but it is there, in an exchange between Jesus and his disciple.Jesus speaks with his closest friends:
John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. (NIV)
What Jesus had related to Philip was the truth that the entirety of what the disciples could sense of the multi-dimensional God was what they could sense in Jesus. Where, or ’in Whom’ the many dimensions of God intersected our dimensionally limited spacetime was the only place Philip could sense the presence of God directly, as in touch, smell, feel, hearing. Jesus was with the disciples as a living breathing intersection of God with their spacetime reality ... God passed through their 'brane' (their spacetime limits) and manifest to them as Jesus.
There is a further hint that our perspective is correct, that Jesus was God intersecting spacetime of the disciples, found in the scripture passage which states:
Philippians 2:6 – 8 Who, [Jesus] being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! (NIV)
Have you ever thought about what ‘humbled himself‘ means from the perspective of self-limiting of capabilities? Jesus, as God with us, limited the capabilities He would call upon while in our world. Have you ever wondered if ‘obedient to death‘ might refer to Jesus limiting His simultaneous existence in many realms, subjecting Himself to the limitations of space and time as we experience them? We will be exploring these notions.
For the Disciples to comprehend God in Jesus and Jesus in God was a function of remembering episodes of Jesus’ actions they had witnessed, applying learned concepts about the Creator God they had acquired prior to meeting Jesus, transferring these notions to the experiences they witnessed, then processing this reality (which in many instances of miracles defied rational explanation) as a function of this man with whom they traveled and ate and worshipped.
An ‘un-miraculous’ nature of that presence of God with men was startling to me as I began to fully comprehend the simplicity of the explanation for John 14, during the Cosmos episode on dimensions and tesseracts! The one who spoke the entire universe into being, and even the space and time of the entire shebang, walked and ate and slept with these flawed men!
Honestly, in my short time posting here on FR, I have noticed the responses to refute proof texts involve creative gymnastics to ignore what the lexicon clearly states. For example, in John 20:28 "theos" is well theos not something else. Here is just a sample to examine:
John 20:
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
When I asked for an explanation of why did Thomas call Jesus Christ "my God" these were the answers I received:
-the first answer was "Thomas was actually saying like we do today 'OMG' or oh my, your back!" Well there are a couple of problems with this interpretation given the first should suffice. That being something Thomas would be aware of since he was an itinerant Jew: “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain." Now of course in our times we think using God's Name in vain is using it with a curse word, but to Thomas and Jews of his era, saying "God" for other than prayer or song was a violation of Exodus 20, which contains what many call "The Big 10."
-The second answer received when I refuted the first rather silly answer, was "Thomas really did not mean "God" but there is a better interpretation or explanation." Of which I was told Thomas 'really' said "Lord or Master." Of which I refuted given the lexicon for "God" in John 20:28 is "theos" and not "kyrios" which is Lord or Master and a few other honorific titles. So Thomas clearly was not saying "My Lord and my Lord (Master)." That would be redundant and make no sense. So, clearly "God" in John 20:28 IS "theos". Based on the lexicon the choices for "theos"(G2316) are: God; a god; goddess; godly. So since those who deny Jesus Christ is Truly God and Truly man don't see Thomas actually saying "My God" but something else, the choices remaining are clearly either a god or godly. When I asked "which is it then?" I received no reply other than why I was so focused on Thomas. Which of course I took as a duck and cover response. Why? Because this is a clear case where some ignore the actual Greek word used for "God", "theos."
-The third response I received was that "there is a much better explanation for this passage because there was 'no way' Thomas could come to the conclusion Jesus Christ was God." When I asked for that "better explanation" again I never got one, other than "you can't see it because you are blind." Well that was interesting but still no answer.
Since I received no answers with regards to the use of "theos", I decided maybe a different passage would be better. I then asked who exactly was tempted in Matthew chapter 4? The Father or Jesus Christ? The answer I received was "you can't see it because you are blind."
Perhaps someone else would like to take a swing at what I presented.
Today, these sites — here and here — list about 50 non-Trinitarian Christian denominations.
***If they call themselves ‘christian’ and they deny the divinity of Christ, they are heretics.
or in Kevmo’s delightful version (post #1,983) “God Damned Heresy” -
***Yes, that is a rare event to put those 3 words together in that order and not have it be simply a swear word. In this case it really is God Damned Heresy.
I have no desire to join your pissing contest with others on the thread but I take GREAT exception to your easily proven false assertion that the Triune nature of our Almighty God is incorrect or that there are no DIRECT Scripture texts that say Christ IS God in the flesh. There is no other honest way to understand the deity of Jesus with the Father AND the Holy Spirit than one of two conclusions: there are THREE Gods OR God is three persons in ONE Godhead. I think the problem many people have with the idea of the Trinity is that they try to grasp its concept with finite minds - incapable of truly comprehending the INFINITE. Christians are not polytheists - there IS only one, true God. Therefore, the Trinity has ALWAYS been a major tenet of Christianity and those who claim to follow Christ cannot deny this. There are many things that we believe by faith.
BJK: when you research this particular passage, come to find out that one otherwise Trinitarian theologian, John Calvin, wrote:
“the ancients improperly used this passage to prove that Christ is of the same substance as the Father.
For Jesus does not argue concerning unity of substance, but speaks of his agreement with the Father, so that whatever is done by Christ will be confirmed by the Father’s power.”
And so, one-by-one, every Trinitarian proof-text which people like Kevmo might offer up is found not to say what they claim.
Spirited: You have not rightly comprehended the meaning intended by Calvin.
As the ancients were monists, which means they held to the idea of an impersonal Divine One Substance or Void with which everything in the universe was in continuity with, it was to be expected that as Calvin noted, they would use,
“this passage to prove that Christ is of the same substance as the Father.”
While the Father (the first Person of the Holy Trinity) and the Son (the second Person) are of the same essence the same is true of men.
While it may be said of two men that they are of the same substance with respect to the flesh (physical matter) within which their souls are fully embedded, yet they are not the same man, but one is one man, and the other another. For we do not say all men are one and the same person, which does not follow from their being of one fleshy substance and the same human nature, but rather that each man is a person with his own will and personality.
So it is that the Father and the embodied Son, while of the same spiritual essence are two distinct persons.
Col 1:19 and 2:9 clearly and emphatically state the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in Christ in bodily form.
If the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Christ, then how much more of the Godhead needs to dwell in Him for Him to be considered God?
“Only Begotten Son.” This occurs five times. It is evident that the statement that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in a very different sense than other men are sons of God. The Greek for only-begotten is monogenes (one of a kind, unique).