Million Engineers Struggling to Find a Job

Townhall.com ^ | June 23, 2013 | Mike Shedlock

[Kaslin]

It's tough to find a job everywhere: in the US, in China, in Europe, and in India.

Think education is the answer? I don't.

Economic Times reports amillion engineers in India struggling to get placed in an extremely challenging market

Somewhere between a fifth to a third of the million students graduating out of India's engineering colleges run the risk of being unemployed. Others will take jobs well below their technical qualifications in a market where there are few jobs for India's overflowing technical talent pool. Beset by a flood of institutes (offering a varying degree of education) and a shrinking market for their skills, India's engineers are struggling to subsist in an extremely challenging market.

According to multiple estimates, India trains around 1.5 million engineers, which is more than the US and China combined. However, two key industries hiring these engineers -- information technology and manufacturing -- are actually hiring fewer people than before.

For example, India's IT industry, a sponge for 50-75% of these engineers will hire 50,000 fewer people this year, according to Nasscom. Manufacturing, too, is facing a similar stasis, say HR consultants and skills evaluation firms.

According to data from AICTE, the regulator for technical education in India, there were 1,511 engineering colleges across India, graduating over 550,000 students back in 2006-07. Fuelled by fast growth, especially in the $110 billion outsourcing market, a raft of new colleges sprung up -- since then, the number of colleges and graduates have doubled.

Engineers Churned Out in Spades



So what does India do with those excess engineers?

Some end up in the US on work visas because the US citizens purportedly do not have the right skills. In reality, there are plenty of skills here, but foreign workers will work for a lot less. Since companies can hire a programmer from India or Russia for 1/3 the cost of a US worker, that's what happens.

Training more engineers, here, or in China, or in India will not help. There is a glut of high-tech talent.

On Tuesday, wroteEpic Glut of Graduates Depresses Wages; Fake Job Offers Taint Hiring Statistics.

The article was about a glut of graduates in China with no job, but it could just as easily been about India or the US. This is what I said:

How is [the situation in China] different than the average liberal arts major in the US expecting the world at their doorstep just because they have a useless degree that prepares them to do nothing more than work as a part-time retail clerk, 25 hours a week, dumped into the Obamacare system?

Yet, we are told education is the answer, without ever addressing the questions "for who? at what cost? in what field?"

These articles were purportedly about China. Change the names and faces and the stories are not much different than you can find right here in the US, in Italy, in France, or anywhere else in a slow-grow global economy.

After growing at an astronomical rate for years, the cost of education is going to plunge. Job statistics will force that outcome.

If education was the answer, there would not be millions of engineers looking for jobs.

[khelus]

Re: that’s because they hand out engineering degrees and doctorates in India like candy and we import these idiots.

While this is true, I have two observations:

One: Unless the Indian national assimilates to our culture and business customs, they don't do well. The cultural differences are too great.

Two: The Indians I have worked with have been quite skilled, but perhaps this is a minority. I do know that India has very severe corruption problems, so paper credentials are not a useful gauge of their skill.

One: Agreed

Two: Not in my experience. Those skilled are a very small minority. Most couldn't program themselves into or out of a paper bag. I have many friends in the field with the same observation.

Three: On the whole, paid way less than Americans. Have suppressed rates at least by 1/3.
Many morph into illegals. And work the same way the Mexicans do - through companies that vouch for them and sell their services at such a low price, they are subsidized by tax payers with government freebies.

They are very comfortable with government freebies. India is a very socialist, big government, crony 'capitalist' country.

Large corporations love them because they are CHEAP.

[dfwgator]

Indian programmers are good...if you detail the programming specs down to a T.

Heck if you spend that much time detailing the specs, you might as well go ahead and code it yourself.

[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

India could solve this engineer surplus in short order by just easing the rules by which entrepreneurs can operate. They would have a huge economic and technological boom.

[Cronos]

with the idea that many would be used to syphon off jobs from more advanced nations, both through plant relocations and the outsourcing of jobs where the engineer can do the work from distant locations.

That may be true of China, but in india there is no one making those kind of central decisions

the logic for indian students is simple -- engineers make more money, so head for that field...

[khelus]

I think it means companies can hire engineers from India or Russia who remain in India or Russia for 1/3 of the cost of a US worker.

I should add that during the past few years, companies are returning to the US to manufacture goods (or at least part of the assembly). The supply chain was getting to long and costly (contacts, monitoring workers in China and so forth).

Nope that would be 1/3 less in the US due to special tax waivers, i.e. paying no or very partial income tax.

I don't know about Russia, but in India you can fire for less that some one fully taxed in the US pays in taxes.

[ctdonath2]

“Any true engineer, if properly educated and trained, should be able to understand and practically apply concepts (at some basic level) to just about any other engineering discipline.”

Capable, yes, given time and study.

Expect to apply for the job and have a shot at getting it, no.

[ctdonath2]

I hate whiteboard coding interviews. Enough that I’ve taken a sub-notebook computer with me to interviews. One in particular: they asked me to write some code on the whiteboard, knowing it would take some time; I popped open the computer and Eclipse, told them (several people at once) to just continue the interview while I coded. Fielded four lines of questioning and still had running code in 10 minutes. Got the job (turned it down).

[Will88]

That may be true of China, but in india there is no one making those kind of central decisions

It doesn't have to a central decision, but just many individuals or groups of individuals who recognized that training more engineers would result in more opportunities to attract outsourced jobs from more advanced economies, plus provide engineers for internal growth. The article points that out as what happened in India.

According to data from AICTE, the regulator for technical education in India, there were 1,511 engineering colleges across India, graduating over 550,000 students back in 2006-07. Fuelled by fast growth, especially in the $110 billion outsourcing market, a raft of new colleges sprung up -- since then, the number of colleges and graduates have doubled.

[Joe Boucher]

Check out their Winter Festival where they all build Incredible things out of snow and ice.
Course not a lot else to do cept ride snowmobiles or study for about 6 months or build ice sculptures

[Little Bill]

Exactly, did I&C, Electrical, and Chem stuff after being dragged into strange areas that don’t require welding and pipe. Gotta do what you gotta do.

[Sequoyah101]

But the humanities help them to have people skills? Nah.

Ditto on a decent report and writing skills. Get it down to one page with a recommendation first, problem statement next, support third and necessary appendices of supporting calculations and information.

I used to say that the work ethic can be managed... if you can’t get it you can’t stay. Oh for those days again. From time-to-time good firing with relative prejudice does wonders for attitudes of the remainder.

As for humanities, in one class my buddy and I forgot to attend since that was optional. Missed the tests but remembered the final, crammed and came out OK. I don’t think we had the proper attitude there either.

By the way, I have read most of the classics on my own and took a few learnings from them. Engineers have also been know to study history and some are pretty good musicians it being that math skills and music have some relationship.

[Lazamataz]

From time-to-time good firing with relative prejudice does wonders for attitudes of the remainder.

No lie. As my friend Kevin used to say, "Ya kill a few chickens, and the monkeys get in line..."

LOL

[khelus]

Indian programmers are good...if you detail the programming specs down to a T.

Heck if you spend that much time detailing the specs, you might as well go ahead and code it yourself.

Absolutely ! And let the compiler catch the typos.

ROFL

[khelus]

Re:The answer is for American schools to produce more qualified Engineers and fewer Psychology grads. (3 Fingas)
If people were using their own money to buy their college education, more of them would choose to study something that would help them earn a living. As long as they're spending OPM, why not major in Underwater Basketweaving?

Ma'am, I don't wish to be disrespectful, but so many Freepers seem to think that all any college student needs to do to ensure employment after graduation is change his major from, say, sociology to engineering. The problem is aptitude and educational background. I cannot remember the exact number but not too ago someone posted the opinion of an engineering professor that at his university maybe 15 percent of the student body could handle the mathematical requirements in the engineering school.

One has to understand that few students have the ability to understand higher mathematics and the aptitudes to handle, say, spatial relationships, that many engineers have to deal with. Add in the educational background (maybe the students took almost no math classes in high school; how are the professors going to teach remedial math as they go along in any engineering course?) So saying the answer lies in having students just change their major is not the answer, IMHO.

Thanks for pointing this out. The progressive idea that anyone can do anything has made serious inroads into our culture.

In addition, the US has always graduated more than enough engineers and STEM workers.

Another item ignored is that there is NO shortage of STEM workers. There wasn't even a shortage of IT people for the Y2K conversions. In addition to new graduates, there are plenty of experienced unemployed and underemployed americans with STEM degrees.

[3Fingas]

....but so many Freepers seem to think that all any college student needs to do to ensure employment after graduation is change his major from, say, sociology to engineering....

I never said that everyone could pass Engineering. In fact, I said that most of these students would be better off going to vocational school. I did say that a degree in Engineering was worth something; whereas, the majority of students study Liberal Arts, which, depending on the quality of schooling received, isn't worth as much as a STEM major.

.....In addition, the US has always graduated more than enough engineers and STEM workers....

If that's true we don't need to import some many via H1B. I tend to think the labor supply and demand varies greatly with location. I see plenty of adds looking for Engineers in Texas. Even if you don't get a job in that field, Math/Engineer majors are in great demand in the public schools. They don't have enough teachers with those skills. So, I really think people with STEM majors are much more in demand than some people suggest. I think a lot of the problem with finding work for some in STEM is that their skills are not up to date or American companies don't want to pay them good wages when they can outsource a lot of this work overseas for less.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Software development is as much an art as it is a profession."

ANY human endeavor fits that criterion. EVERY science has an "art" factor, including the hardest of sciences, and every art has a technology basis. There is no such animal as the "Two Cultures" (attempting to separate science/technology from "art").

Most GOOD scientists and engineers in the past (and still today) are also capable in some or other art (how many top physicists, for instance, played some musical instrument or other, others have written novels, produced plays, etc., etc.). So the "science" part of the mythical "two cultures" has retained its connection to "the arts".

The same cannot be said for the "art" side....most of those these days are technologically illiterate..but in the past any painter had to formulate his own paints..which forced him to keep his hand in the technology side. Likewise for the other arts. BUT, the BEST artists today "still" have a tech connection, and utilize it to enhance their works.

[zeestephen]

There’s a good reason petroleum engineers are highly paid and often in short supply.

Location.

Most of them work in places where the wife and kids do not want to live, or, they are often off shore for weeks at a time.

Much the same for chemical engineers.

More and more wealthy countries forbid construction of new refineries and chemical plants.

Only one solution - set up shop in Third World countries.

[zeestephen]

Re: “Software people get the same rates here, whether they are foreign nationals or domestic citizens.”

I don't disagree, Laz, but you tell only part of the story.

The surplus of foreign labor in software engineering has put a ceiling of around $90,000 on above average code writers.

Adjusted for inflation, their pay level has gone up less than 1% per year since 2000, quite odd, since they are allegedly so hard to find.

Another issue - USA college students.

American kids may be lazy, but they aren't stupid.

Why would an above average American student major in software engineering when his pay will cap out in 7 years, and some kid from India will take his job away in 15 years?

[Lazamataz]

Well done. You’ve got me thinking about my own career. Yes, I, too, seem capped.

[Woodman]

Yes that is the truth in most places, but no one seems to wan to hear it.

I was in India recently and you can’t travel a mile without seeing an engineering school. The problem is they have very little domestic demand, quality of the fly-by-night schools is questionable, and engineering is the only way up most Indians see for themselves.