Posted on 03/08/2013 9:01:51 PM PST by daniel1212
Caracas, Venezuela, Mar 6, 2013 / 12:01 pm (CNA).- A source in Venezuela has revealed to CNA that President Hugo Chavez died “in bosom of the Church” and received spiritual direction and the sacraments in his last days.
In announcing Chavez’s death to the nation on March 5, Vice President Nicolas Maduro said the Venezuelan leader died “clinging to Christ.” The source in Venezuela told CNA that during the last weeks of his life, Chavez requested spiritual direction and asked to receive the sacraments.
Ever since he assumed power in 1999, Chavez butted heads continuously with the Catholic Church over statements by the bishops warning of the risks and excesses of his Socialist agenda. In 2002, Chavez accused the Venezuelan bishops of being a “tumor” for his revolutionary goals and demanded that the Vatican not intervene in the internal affairs of the country.
In recent years, Chavez occasionally took part in the religious services of distinct denominations, but he surprised the press in April 2012 when he showed up at a Catholic church in his hometown of Barinas to attend Holy Week services. He wore a rosary around his neck and prayed for strength to fight his illness. Last July, Chavez made public his request to meet with the Catholic bishops.
After Chavez’s death, the Archdiocese of Caracas, led by Cardinal Jorge Urosa who is currently in Rome for the conclave, sent its condolences
The secretary general of the Bishops’ Conference of Venezuela, Bishop Jesus Gonzalez de Zarate, called for national unity. “At this time let us all put forth our best sentiments,” he said during an interview on Venezuelan television. “Death is not the end of our life,” he added. “Death only opens the way to a life of complete happiness, at the side of God our Father.”
It is faith alone. Faith produces works. If the works are absent, there is good reason to conclude that the saving faith is as well.
Jesus said that the world would know His followers by their love and that if we loved Him, the natural outworking of that would be to obey Him.
Chavez demonstrated neither in his life.
Anyone with the mentality that they can live like they please and then ask for forgiveness in the end and they'll be good has not had the heart change necessary for salvation. There has been no repentance.
Maybe Chavez really did. MAYBE. But it is highly unlikely, and *accepting* Christ for fire insurance is merely trying to avoid hell, not being repentant for wrongs done.
As for praying for his soul, if it makes a Catholic feel better, fine, but it's a waste of time. Our decision is made here on earth and death seals it.
Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
The only way sin is forgiven is through the shedding of blood,. Suffering does not *pay for sins* because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. If he had been forgiven, God does not count his sin against him. There is nothing left to pay for as he has the righteousness of Christ credited to his account.
Purgatory is an unscriptural doctrine, not supported anywhere from the Bible.
It doesn't work because it CAN'T work.
I don’t doubt that for a minute.
The problem is that the Catholic church conflates the church with Jesus.
The church is referred to as the bride of Christ and His body, not Jesus Himself, who is the head.
Anyone can follow a church all they want and it means nothing. Following Jesus is another matter.
In a few moments Monkey Boy will getting his 1st Hades communion (burnt toast) from Satan. Bon appetit mofo!!!!
You mean in Venezuela?
Or at least Orthodox perhaps. Before V2's 's revisionism, many expressed the doctrine of "saint" Peter Julian Eymard: "People often say, 'It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.' That is not true! ...A bad Catholic remains a child of the family although he is a prodigal, and, however great a sinner he may be, he still has right to mercy. Through his faith a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant is..(quoted in "The Real Presence, NY: Blessed Sacrament Fathers, 1938, p. 245).http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/real-presence40.htm
Why am I not surprised that you could document that?
Wow, did he get that wrong. NOBODY has a *right* to mercy, and certainly not based on denominational affiliation.
That's the type that wouldn't believe they had a nose on his face unless the RCC told them so. Brain washing is so evident in Jvette's posts.
Jvette's is not spiritually equipped to understand the things of God. And him keep saying Hugo was a believer in Jesus - he has no understanding of what it is to be a believer in Jesus! Hugo wasn't. He only knew about Jesus and that is ALL a catholic is capable of - due to the teachings of man/the RCC.
Anyone calling for spiritual direction - never knew JESUS. They would KNOW Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life. So he wouldn't be going to man for spiritual direction, he would have been crying out to Jesus. And when he first learned of cancer, his interest was in saving himself. He had LOTS of time to voice to his nation that he is sorry for all the wrong he did. That did not happen. There was no true repentance. He couldn't/wouldn't bear the shame.
So now when he couldn't save himself from cancer, he turned to trying to save himself from reaping what he has sown in life. The unfortunate thing is - he reached out to man and not God. So much for he being a believer in Jesus! He was a believer in an organization with pomp with it's desire to please/deceive man - not God. And they have zilch power to do one thing for Hugo ONLY deceive him more because that's all they have.
Hugo was deceived in life and death. And he's the example of believing man. And that was HIS CHOICE!
And the RCC is not equipped to tell him the truth - to swallow his ego/pride and repent openly to his nation and people and then accept, thankfully, the GIFT of salvation that Jesus died to give him. And that is what his spiritual direction should have been. I'm sure they gave him a rosary instead and false hope like they did in his life.
Everyoine that has purchased an indulgeance is “in the bosom of the ‘church.’ “
No, nobody should celebrate him (except to be grateful that another Socialist dictator has bitten the dust!).
This doesn’t do anything about making his insanity acceptable. It wasn’t, and I hope the people overwhelm this guy Maduro immediately and get their country back.
I’m talking about Chavez’ personal life. We don’t know what happened at the last. I’m assuming he let a priest visit him and received the last rites.
“Between the saddle and the ground/ is mercy sought and mercy found.”
Show us scripture to support what you have no problem with.
Chavez was a sinner as we all are, but he was also a believer in Jesus and as such, wouldn’t his faith alone be enough to save him?
Wrong, a born again believer is not a sinner but was a sinner who has been saved by grace. Hugo's faith was in a church and that's who he ran to. Believers are saved and it is spiritual and we believe it by faith and OUR Father doesn't look on believers as sinners, HE only sees the Precious Spotless Blood of Jesus. Otherwise, we couldn't go to God. Catholics don't go to God Our Father, they go to man and confess to man and follow man's teachings. MAJOR DIFFERENCE!
You say he was a believer in Jesus; yet you have no proof of it and neither has he shown any proof of it - in fact the opposite as you can't serve two masters. He ran to man and he believed man. So you don't know what it means to be a believer in Jesus and neither did he.
Faith is God-given to all so no man can say there is no God. That faith if 'of' God and 'for' God. It is supernatural faith. It is not the faith 'of' 'for' some organization/man. That's worldly faith. Faith that you only need your 5 senses for and the RCC is worldly. Catholics believe man and their teachings; Believers don't, they believe JESUS The Word ONLY! Very easy to 'get' if one isn't so brain washed to not understand.
Non Catholics say faith alone, but here in this thread, seem to be judging his faith by his actions, which is exactly what the Church teaches.
Non catholics means BELIEVERS, PRO WORD, PRO JESUS. We don't care what some church/man teaches - we only care what JESUS teaches! By Faith alone is correct because JESUS said it! Jesus is the Author and Finisher of my/believers faith. Man is the author/finisher of a catholic/mormom/Islam's faith.
Before salvation one's filth rags are an admonition to God, so how could you possibly believe what Jesus died for would ever be part of saving you. As if the precious spotless Blood of Jesus isn't enough, one needs to add their filthy rags to the mix. Talk about contamination. That is what the RCC is doing and you believing it. Contaminating one's desire to be saved that one ends up NOT be saved! Jesus said specifically and 'NOT BY WORKS'. Another simple understandable statement that catholics are taught to ignore - because man/evil has a better way - to deceive. Talk about JUDGING and God's Word, no less, to be wrong!!
It is only AFTER salvation, when one's sins are washed away and a thankful heart is sold out to Jesus alone that any works can be pure towards HIM and HIM alone and NOT for pats on the back. Catholics put the Vatican/RCC as the author and finisher of their faith. And that is what Rome/evil is all about, brain wash people to believe us/our teachings and they will never know or see the difference. It's easy for them to understand worldly teachings so we will tell them to believe us - apply faith over here and believe us. We are the author, catechism/man's teachings and we will wrap it in some Scripture for some appearance of authenticity and they will never know! And evil was right - they don't know! The Vatican/RCC put themselves as the author/finisher of the catholic faith as we see by Hugo!
But the point is that, Chavez was Catholic, he did meet with a priest for weeks before his death and we do not know the intimate details of those meetings. If he asked for the Sacraments, it is likely he confessed and was given absolution which would mean that he was eligible to have a funeral mass.
Top priority - to be 'eligible' for a mass! WOW! He can confess all day and night to some man and it doesn't mean squat and all the pomp is just pomp - it doesn't translate into forgiveness. It's was only a 'religious' ceremony and pomp - all worldly and means nothing only to the 'religious' who believe in false hope.
The Bible tells us there is no sin greater than God’s mercy. Who are we to judge otherwise?
You are doing a pretty good job of it. Judging the words of what Jesus said by seeing a need to twist them and make them apply to you/Hugo/catholics and fit w/man's/a 'church' teachings. It's totally opposite of THE TRUE CHURCH where JESUS IS THE HEAD and where HIS WORDS ALONE reign.
Jesus extended His mercy for all but not all accepted His mercy - they ran to man instead. The author and finisher of their faith. They believed man and man was more than willing to give them what they have - deception! ONLY JESUS IS THE TRUTH and THE WAY. One only has LIFE through Jesus, not man. Man has no power but only deception; you did say all are sinners. Man/their teachings does NOT speak for JESUS. JESUS HAS HIS OWN WORD!! Seems you translate 'church' into JESUS - which is exactly the aim of the RCC/Vatican. So they tell you to listen to them/their teachings, go to them and Mary - and NEVER straight to The Father which Jesus DID and TAUGHT. Now who is judging? Catholics don't believe JESUS so they judge HIM to be wrong. See what 'man/evil' has you doing?
Keep praying for his soul all you want - it's just cementing the fact that the Vatican is the author and finisher of your faith because praying for the dead is NOT biblical but worldly/man's//RCC teachings.
Well stated.
Confession to man is not confession to God.
Nor is it repentance.
Lots of people *see the light* as they near death, but likely it’s not out of any genuine repentance and sorrow for sin, but rather a desire to escape the consequences for their sins, knowing that they are heading for what they deserve, as all sinners are.
God will not be fooled by manipulation. Nor will He be used for our own sake. The best we can hope for is that those who suddenly seek God at the last minute are sincere in their desire to know Him, rather than just using Him to escape the inevitable.
There’s a world of difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught.
Amen!
Not devil’s advocate.
Merely seeking an understanding of this seeming contradiction to the non Catholic tenet of faith alone.
When a Catholic says both faith and works are needed for salvation, we are accused of teaching against the Bible which supposedly says faith alone saves. We defend the belief by saying that one who has faith will have works/fruits/deeds which reveals that faith.
Again, I do not judge Hugo Chavez. I do not judge anyone. God judges.
But, here in this thread I am reading posts by non Catholics condemning him for his actions even though he professed a belief in Jesus.
Logically is would follow that if one must have good fruits as evidence of faith, then faith alone does not save, faith must be accompanied by deeds.
Just saying.
In context......
even in context that particular understanding of that verse is not as some here would have it. St. Paul is quite clearly speaking of the Eucharist. How else would one partake of the one loaf and drink of the one cup which unites the one body of Christ?
As a Catholic, who beliefs most fervently in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the non Catholic and mistaken understanding of that verse, does not counter my argument.
Please cite for me where in any official Catholic document or teaching the claim is made that the Church destines souls for heaven or hell. Or please cite for me any official Church statement claiming someone, anyone, is in hell.
God said, “I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life.”
We make our choices freely and choose our destiny by those choices. Unless the truth has not been revealed to us, we alone are responsible.
This all sounds so well and good but, unfortunately, it leads to presumption, which is a sin in itself.
One’s sins are forgiven and one can only be saved because Christ died for our redemption.
The problem lies in the thinking that there is no punishment for sin and that is why so many live lives that are full of sin without any guilt or fear of punishment.
Divorce, abortion, adultery, gossip, theft, lies, envy, greed all are practiced by professed Christians who shrug and say, no one’s perfect and God loves me.
Read St. Paul in Romans as he lists those who not inherit the kingdom because of their sinful ways. He is speaking to BELIEVERS! And yes, those who accept Jesus do have a change in heart and a change in their lives, if they not only accept His grace, but also His commandments and His chastisement.
St. Paul says the things he would do he does not do and those things he would not do he does. St. Paul sinned after his conversion, just as we all do and forgiveness is there when we repent of those sins.
Now regarding Chavez, he lived his faith as he thought it should be lived. He rebelled against the Church when it suited him and called upon it when that suited him. He interpreted the Bible his own way to justify his socialism.
As I said, he lived his faith imperfectly. But, even so, he did profess a belief in Jesus, he did try to follow Him even if it was not always the way the Church would have it, or the way metmom would have it or the way many others here would have it.
He may have lied about his faith for personal gain.
I don’t know. No one knows as we do not know his heart. Only God knows and only God judges him.
Purgatory is in fact very Scriptural as we know that the time of our death is uncertain and we will most likely die with sin staining our soul. As nothing unclean can enter the presence of God in His kingdom, purification is a blessing and not a curse.
Elijah came before the Lord and bemoaned that he was unclean. An angel brought a coal from the fire and touched it to his lips and he was cleaned. Also, St. Paul tells us that our actions will be judged and all that is bad will be burned away and that only the pure will remain.
Again, one cannot use a non Catholic belief against a Catholic as the Catholic already rejects it. So, in the Catholic church, Hugo Chavez, as a member of the church, who received the Sacraments would merit a funeral Mass.
Just because non Catholics do not agree because they do not understand, does not mean the Church was wrong.
Pitiful, but I expect no less.
No response as none would suffice except to say that my trust is in the Lord who knows every hair on my head and every corner of my heart unlike you.
John 1:8
New International Version (©2011)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
New Living Translation (©2007)
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.
English Standard Version (©2001)
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
International Standard Version (©2012)
If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves.
NET Bible (©2006)
If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And if we shall say we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If we say, “We aren’t sinful” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
American King James Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
American Standard Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Douay-Rheims Bible
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Darby Bible Translation
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
English Revised Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Webster’s Bible Translation
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Weymouth New Testament
If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts.
World English Bible
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Young’s Literal Translation
if we may say — ‘we have not sin,’ ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;
That is manifestly evident, as first, the context is clearly about the body of Christ resisting and maintaining fellowship by avoiding idolatry and offenses to it. Thus the text you invoke is part of a teaching which censures having "fellowship with devils" by eating the sacrifices of the altar with them, as this signifies fellowship with those whom you eat with, and the object of their sacrifices.
"Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. " (1 Corinthians 10:7) "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." (1 Corinthians 10:14)
"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." (1 Corinthians 10:20)
And note here that "fellowship with devils' was not done by eating the real flesh of demons, (v. 19) but by eating things dedicated to false gods with pagans as part of a communal celebration. Likewise, feasts of the Lord in the OT worshiped God, by not by consuming His literal flesh. Nor is fellowship with the body and blood of Christ that of consuming His literal flesh, but by communally eating as part of corporate worship of Him who gave Himself for us.
And if done in a manner inconsistent with Him, and His selfish death, such as by ignoring needy brethren as if they were not part of the body of Christ, then they actually were not eating the Lord's supper. (1Cor. 11:20)
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. " (1 Corinthians 10:16-17)
Both in paganism and the OT and the NT believers, "they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar," (1Cor. 10:18) signifying fellowship by eating what is sacrificed, and thus he writes. "I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." (v. 20)
And neither here or in the next chapter is the focus on the elements of the Lord's supper, but on what the Lord's supper signifies, and how it was being observed, in cp. 11 that being inconsistent with the Lord's death .
Moreover, entirely absent in Acts and the epistles is any explanatory teaching on the elements being changed into the literal body and blood of Christ, and the critical importance of receiving it to gain life in you, leaving RCs to read the desired substance into texts (in trying argue with evangelicals, as they do not need Scriptural proof texts for it)
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