I Dare

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

“Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism”

You were almost making sense up to that point.

This displays an astounding ignorance of Christian History and Theology. First of all, it overlooks the existence of the Orthodox; secondly it overlooks the Catholic stance on Mormon baptism — Catholic Baptism, Orthodox Baptism, and traditional Protestant Baptism are identical—Mormons do not share this foundation, which is fundamental to christianity, at least in the eyes of the Catholic Church, http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html and I will bet everything that the Church does not reverse this stance even in the time of my grandchildrens’ grandchildren—what has been written has been written; and finally, theologically Mormonism is nuts—the people may be nice, and it is probably a nicer form of nuts than Islam, but if my grandhildren call Mormons Christian, I am going to be very annoyed at the failure of my children to educate their children (I’m a Catholic Theologian and my wife and I homeschool).

Also, at least as far as this Freeper goes, no vote for Romney. I may write in his VP if the choice is solid, but I will write in some one else for President—probably Coolidge. I have opted for write in or third party when better RINOs than Romney were running, though I have to say, at least he campaigns like he wants the thing. The childeren of this generation are wiser in their way than the sons of light.

"What bs" ~ you can't debate without denigrating your opponent?

That's exactly the problem as I see it. You are incapable of understanding the difference between the man and your religion.

That's an alien belief to the rest of us. He's just another politician, and he's remarkably lackluster ~ and there are some fundamental moral questions about him, and that's all typical of just about any politician, but he wants to run for President as the candidate of our party.

wow

Did you really just speak that about the man who gave Massachusetts gay marriage?
more taxes?
state run health care?
Gun banning legislation?
bragging he was more pro-abortion than TED KENNEDY?

You really are delusional

"Are you claiming that none of the virulence directed toward Romney and his supporters is rooted in antipathy toward Mormonism?

Absolutely Not. Am saying that those who defend Mitts, by expressing that much if not most of the criticism is rooted in his belief of Mormonism need to take a deep breath and think first before expressing that thought.

As illustrated above, his pro abortion and gay "marriage" views is open game for criticism on ideology and facts. His religion has little nor anything to do with that argument.

You kidding? Well the question answers itself. However, I am obliged to respond to your “attacking Mormonism” claim.

LDS sends 52.000 missionaries world wide to tell the rest of us we are wrong, Whores of Babylon, Apostates, Gracers and quite a few other names, pejorative or whatever you want to call it.

Most Christians do not know one thing about LDS while on the contrary LDS missionaries are equipped with the basics in Christianity and actively work to undermine those Christians faith and replace it with yours.

We seek to educate Christians regarding the history of LDS leadership, their stances, Church Doctrine and contrast it with Christianity.

They are distinctly different and we aim to keep our brothers and sisters in our fold.

If you find that offensive I’m surprised and would think if your faith in your faith is strong enough it should sustain you.

Now back to worshiping in my fallen and pack of lies faith.... Some leader of LDS said something like that. in fact, I could go on all day quoting pablum like that from LDS leadership

Good post.

You have an opinion and others can have differing opinions.
What's wrong with that?

I don't care whether you go to hell or not - only that you and I can agree today on universal principles...the Ten Commandments.

Do we necessarily recognize the same divine entity/trio/passel/historic time line?
No.

And, again, what's wrong with that?
My fate in the afterlife is MY business.

And, over a whole lot of years I've had only positive dealings with Mormons...in large part because I don't care whether or not their particular belief sructure matches mine.

I’m dismayed about how politics have become. It has become quiet clear that both sides republican and democrats play games and betray the people of the country. Both sides have taken us a step toward bigger and bigger government. This is why the tea party began. And now both sides are bad. It has become Rinos and Progressives. They all hate the tea party type conservatives. The whole scenario is backwards now. Romney is not the right guy. There is no savior either. Romney at this moment is a bit of a unknown as to how he will govern just like Obama was. He has a really bad record. Should have been laughed off stage. Primaries were stolen from Conservatives. Things have gotten crazy. Romney is no contrast to Obama.

Caught that one ~ it's the same thing as when the Islamofascists say "you will bow down" ~ meaning you will go to the Mosque to pray and you will bow down just like them.

Frankly it's highly unlikely things will play out that way.

Now, that business about who tries to assassinate a President. History has it that ALL actual or attempted assassins have been LEFTWINGTARDS ~ even the one who claimed to be just a job seeker.

GRIG is telling us that "- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)" ~ if I were to take this as standard Mormon thought on the matter that means the prediction is that Leftists will stop trying to kill Presidents and that job will be taken up by individuals in groups that've NEVER gotten involved close enough to make a hit ~ to wit, the Chinese, the Evangelicals, and the Moslems.

Seriously, I don't think history changes that way, and why would the Chinese ~ who own hundreds of thermonuclear tipped intercontinental missiles bother to assassinate the President? As an Evangelical and with numerous Chinese and Moslem friends and associates, I gotta' tell you Grig is really off base here.

Oh, yeah, and about his casual reference to Evangelicals and Moslems being nutjobs ~ gotta' tell you the Moslems got their 5% criminal class and terrorists, but the Evangelicals don't. Grig should spend some time studying terrorists and Presidential assassins so he can get a better idea of who does this stuff ~

Protestant Baptism is not identical to Catholic Baptism

Baptism according to the Bible is immersion by those old enough to make a conscious decision to repent of their sins and believe on jesus Christ

Infants can do no such thing.

Grig, brother, I was walking though the post office in Provo ~ possibly the most thoroughly Mormon spot on the planet, and a bomb went off in the parcel unit I'd been in just moments before (I was back in the workroom floor where ordinary civilians are not allowed).

It was one Mormon sending a shotgun shell bomb to another Mormon in the area over the issue of a woman.

Yup, yup, yup ~ and everybody working in that post office was a Mormon, and this problem was not a new thing in their experience and said so.

I know who sends bombs by mail in Provo and how stupid they come. He put his name and address on the package.

He's real lucky no one got hurt.

Well then, defend Mormonism.

If I post a comparison of scripture in comparison to Mormon books and literature, tell me why I should see it as christian.

I, in comparison to the scripture, see Mormonsim as blatantly pagan in nature. It differs not a wit to paganism.

If I'm “abusing” freedom of speech by pointing out the differences, so be it.

But, then I would say it is you that, in your original thinking the 2nd amendment was silly, still don't understand what it means.

If Mormon's decided they weren't going to call themselves christian anymore....fine, end of debate.

You need a thicker skin....if you're going to embrace free speech.

I don't find it coincidental that your post occurs now that there is a Mormon running for the Presidency.

Actually, if find it ironic, if not too perdictable.

As illustrated above, his pro abortion and gay "marriage" views is open game for criticism on ideology and facts.

All of this has been discussed again and again.

Yet on every political thread the Mitt Haters bring up their same wild charges again as if they are being made for the first time and have never been responded to.

It is this willful feigned ignorance, and this unwillingness to debate honestly and rationally that points to religious bigotry as the motivating factor.

If your original post was about inflating Rodney and LDS you are seriousl mistaken. Sure there are a few who disagree wig Romney primarily for his religious beliefs alone.

However, by far and large most of us disagree with Mitt and his record as we know and fear of what that past is in regards to prologue.

I can never think of LDS and find plenty of problems with Mitt.

Race, three times forward or it doesn't count. (/s)

There's believer's baptism, and then there's the obligation of a Christian to bring his family to Jesus and Jesus said..... which is why Catholics do infant baptism.

Their explanation is scripturally sound ~ no need to argue with it ~

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