Posted on 06/13/2012 6:05:21 PM PDT by Grig
This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.
All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.
That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.
I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.
And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.
While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE
I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:
- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him
- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,
- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security
- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life
- He will be a better president than either Bush was
- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines
- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory
- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term
- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)
And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism
- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.
- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.
- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.
I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.
I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.
I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.
I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.
Romney is a lying liberal pro-abortion weasel. His Mormonism is not the issue, but it certainly provides a nice excuse for those who would like to deflect attention away from his record... “Those intolerant FReepers don’t like Mitt because he’s Mormon!”
To Grig: My family and I are not voting for either liberal, Obama or Romney, so YOU deal with it.
This was a pretty funny bit that Emo Phillips did a while back that pretty much sums up the perception I have of people who bash other religions.
As a christian, I have always believe love of one another was the greatest gift, and lesson Christ gave to his bride. The absolute hatred I have seen spewed on this board towards Mormons and some others is repugnant. Each person should ask themselves “Which presidential candidate, believes exactly as I do?” If you're anything like me, chances are none of them share your exact beliefs. So if religion is the only litmus test for you, you're likely not going find your ideal candidate. So I guess as far as religion as well as everything else for that matter, I guess I'll go with the guy who more closely shares the same values I do. The anti-Romney chorus has become so shrill on here, I've almost given up coming on here altogether. It's not that I'm a big Mitt fan. He was my least favored candidate (except maybe Ron Paul). I was never a great contributor to the board. I won't be missed if I just end up somewhere else. I do think there is the danger of chasing away some folks many of you will miss though. Having said that, I do still for the most part enjoy seeing the opinions on news etc. from the folks on here, and will probably keep coming on, but it's not the same FR I used to love.
Get over yourself.
Welllll ... I want to be a FReeper, so I will vote for the one JimRob says to vote for.
“1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.”
Might you say this is not the most important book to Mormonism, then why, if the scripture, and not the “Pearl of Great Price” is true, is it a part of Mormonism?
____________________________________________________________
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Gen 1:1
“Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.” Isaiah 45:5
“Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” Isaiah 44:6
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Genisis 1:26
If the scriptures are foundational to the LDS, then “Let Us” is testimony to God's attributes, not to a polytheistic nature.
John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”
John 14:9 “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
The Jews have never ascribed a divided nature to God. The Old Testament is in their language, then how does Mormonism claim the “Book of Mormon” is the “most correct of any book on the earth”, meaning, more correct than what the Jews understood their own language to mean. How is this not pride?
I know absolutely nothing about the Mormon religion except that the rules are, “No drinking”, “No smoking”, and “No gambling”.
That’s good enough for me. :-)
But I still won’t vote for Romeny.
First, I'll tell you my predictions of what effect a Romney presidency will have on the reputation of the entire Mormon "community" in the USA, as I told several LDS co-workers today.
95% of American blacks voted for Obama. Twenty or a hundred years from now, history and people WILL NOT blame American blacks for voting for Obama, because they are "... fill-in-the-blank ..." and they could not have possibly known better.
95% or more of Mormons will vote for Romney. Twenty or a hundred years from now, history and people WILL STILL blame American Mormons for whatever damage he causes, and for his preventing the reversal of the accumulated Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush damages to the USA as a Constitutional republic. Mormons, partly because they are perceived as reasonably well educated, collectively, and because they all know damn well that Romney is devoid of any conservative principles, will forever and ever be associated with Romney's record as president.
Yes, we all know about that prophecy thing, (that some Mormon will save the USA, or something like that), and Romney has about as much chance of living up to it as Barry Odinga. And, oops, that prophecy comes with a HUGE DISCLAIMER: ("... if it is to be saved."), or something like that.
Everyone I know (at least those I consider human) will be voting against Obama, and that means Romney will get our vote. We'll do whatever we can to pressure him toward the right, but his entire life story is one of crony communism; i.e. stealing from others, and redistributing the spoils to himself and his cronies.
Romney's behavior and that of his supporters during this primary season has only reinforced the charges that the corruption and crony communism will continue if he is elected.
Been hanging out over at Democratic Underground again meadsjn?
It's clear you found nothing offensive about Obama's "lipstick on a pig" comment regarding Sarah Palin.
I've never hung out at DU, and I've been using and explaining that terminology for many years.
I’ve read your definition. The term is moronic.
Only to people who wrongly believe that those who steal other people's money for their investment ventures are "capitalists".
Is your claim that no FR Mitt Haters are motivated by Mormon-hatred?
Are you claiming that no FR Mitt-bashers are motivated by Mormon-hatred?
Romney knows better than anyone that his Presidency will be the most consequential reflection ever on the legitimacy of the Mormon faith. This gives him every incentive to seek to be perceived as a successful President by the American people as a whole.
This is where you went "one toke over the line".
Those who knew and understood Reagan, won't be pointing to the car salesman Romney as being anything in the way of a second coming of Reagan. If such a fantasy as that could be true, we'd have seen some clear sign of it by now. Mittens doesn't have the rhetorical chops, period.
From there on you continued go all Choom-gang on us. Some Chinaman, or some whack-job "evangelical" assassinate Romney??? Pipe dreams. It would make more sense to look towards the faggoty left-wing, being as Mormons stirred up enduring hatreds among the Castro Street bath house crowd for Mormon support of Prop 8 in California.
At this point it's still very difficult for me to see enough Dem voters defecting to vote for the likes of Mittens. Something about the man made me distrust him at first sight...and I'm not the only one who picks up on it. He's been a career presidential candidate, and other than that I truly wonder if the man honestly knows himself, beyond the fact he strongly desires to be President. He's no Ronald Reagan, of that we can be sure.
Then some greater recognition of Mormons as being Christian? Among actual Christians? Perhaps, but only to the extent their beliefs are influenced and truly guided more by what a faithful King James derivative New Testament offers, than that whack-job (speaking of whack-jobs) Book of Mormon guides them, then yes--- not unlike how it is today. (Becoming less specifically Mormon, and more like Christians of those centuries before the con artist swindler Joseph Smith came along). So there's no victory for Mormonism on that horizon, now matter how much pride and longing may lead one to predict their own cult's vindication.
Otherwise, we reject the Mormon attempts at witchcraft.
Your "prophesy" reads not unlike Muslim predictions that we will all bow down someday and thank Allah that he sent Muhammad (may pork be upon him, or may police be called upon him).
My personal advice to you, is to stay out of the prophecy business. You are presently out of your depth.
Sorry, wrong on that one
NO WHERE in the Bible does someone who has no conscious knowlege of changing their heart in repentence go forward in Baptism
Arggggghhhhhh!
No! Come on, we all get that there are morons (bigots and prejudice) that come in all stripes and color that do and will.
Enough said. Obviously you do not get or understand my point. I will learn to write english better next time.
Let it go.
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