Posted on 02/11/2012 2:47:00 PM PST by tcg
As Rick Santorum surges in popularity people may be scratching their heads about his Catholic faith. The American public are used to Catholic politicians, but not this kind of Catholic politician.
I grew up as an Evangelical Protestant. We were prejudiced against Catholics. In our mind, Catholics were Democrats--and that was not good. We knew many of the blue collar folks were Catholics, but Catholics were also fat cats.
The Kennedys were Catholics and we had no respect for old Joe Kennedy who made his money as a bootlegger, nor for his philandering sons with their assumed air of American royalty. ... The Catholics did all that bad stuff.
I know now that my prejudices were just that. Among the worldly and sinful Catholics were many good and holy Christians. Likewise, among us Puritanical Protestants it turned out that there were many fallen and hypocritical Christians. That is really not the issue here. What my Protestant prejudices reveal is what Protestants in America have long thought about Catholics...
Protestant Evangelicals combined their theological disagreements with Catholicism with the bad example of Catholics in public life. Every time a Kennedy misbehaved the Protestants sneered and had their suspicions confirmed.
Whenever Catholic politicians like Pelosi and Biden and Kerry stood against their own church in public, the Protestants pointed fingers. When the Catholic bishops did nothing to discipline the wayward politicians Protestants raised a knowing eyebrow saying, "That figures."
Furthermore, the Kennedy Catholics in Washington were put there by the Kennedy Catholics in their own neighborhood. When they met local Catholics, more often than not they met lukewarm, badly catechized, non church going people who were only Catholic because they were Irish or Italian.
Now along comes Rick Santorum.... (READ MORE!)
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
You wrote:
“Considering I’m a pretty outspoken supporter of Newt Gingrich, this whole paragraph from you basically means you don’t understand where I’m coming from.”
Bigotry and ignorance are places?
“My comment was aimed at Protestants...”
So you posted it in a thread about a Catholic priest’s take on a Catholic politician?
The Sacraments are not “barriers” to God but direct access. My problem with your theology is that its makes the individual the immediate judge of his./her own actions. It depends on what lens ones reads scripture, which role one assigns to the Church. What, for instance, one males of the “cloud of witnesses” spoken of in the 12th Chapter of Hebrew. Protestants interpret this witness as no more than the good example of the righteous. Catholics as their continuous presence with us as members of the Heavenly Court. We and they are part of the communion of saints, except they can see the Lord.
You would do well to maybe pick on a REAL small religion, your own size, you prejudiced, ignorant REAL Southern Baptist.
I’m prejudiced against Catholicism, not Catholics as I already explained. As a Catholic, you should be prejudiced against Protestanism, Mormonism, and so on and so forth, since Catholicism claims to have the “fullness of truth” and a direct line to the Apostles. If that is what you believe, there is little I can find offensive with statements affirming that.
My initial post was a critique on Protestants who are citing Santorum’s Catholicism as an example of “real Christianity”, even though the basic tenets of most Protestant denominations is that Catholicism has many grave and dangerous errors. Instead of judging on character, it is better to judge on ideas or, in this case, doctrine.
That’s why I am a firm supporter of Newt Gingrich, while at the same time a firm opponent of Catholicism. And there is no contradiction with that.
Oh just damn. Sorry for the effed up formatting. I used a <> instead of a ‘ ‘.
Its a Saturday night and I emotional about where we are.
Apologies to all.
You wrote:
“Since individual Christians are, in fact, members of the body of Christ and therefore the Church (capitalized), my usage is accurate.”
False. A Christian may attend a church, but belongs to the Church. Learn.
“The question is, does one of those 2 or 3 individuals have to be a Priest, ordained by a recognized religious body, in order to have Christ “in the midst” of them?”
Nope. But there is no priesthood without the Church for they come from the same Lord.
“One wonders how an individual can look at scriptures like these and yet generally ignore them when it comes to Catholicism’s (and many other religions in the world) emphasis on visible structures, rituals and images of spirituality.”
We don’t ignore them. Christ was visible. The Apostles He sent were visible. The “rituals” He gave us - like Baptism - are visible. What I can’t get over is how STUPID some Protestants are to not realize that Christ sent a visible Church not some sort of invisible, intangible, ritualess, imagel poor, made up, phony, baloney Protestant (yet somehow non-existent) sect.
“The addition of Saints, to whom you pray to for assistance in certain matters, or Priests to whom you must confess to, are unnecessary.”
Jesus says otherwise about priests - again, John 20:19-23. And the saints are no more unnecessary than your siblings.
“It is certainly good to have accountability amongst a group of individuals, as it keeps you honest. But the idea that you MUST do it, otherwise your sin is not forgiven, is simply another barrier.”
So God made barriers rather than helps? John 20:19-23. God the Father could have just forgiven us and not have His Son die for us on the cross. Did He set up a barrier to our forgiveness? Of did He glorify and exult humanity by dying in humanity on the cross as a perfect sacrifice to His Father?
Having child like faith in God is good. Having childish levels of understanding of Christianity is not.
You wrote:
“Clearly that IS Catholicism. And I say that as someone who was raised Catholic. Went to parochial school through 12th grade. And still have many Catholic relatives. Catholics like to deny it in order to get Evangelicals not to bother them, but it is what it is.”
Let me make this perfectly clear: I am absolutely not impressed by any of the bona fides you just listed. Raised as a Catholic? Apparently you didn’t learn the faith. Went to parochial school through 12th grade? Apparently you didn’t learn the faith. Still have many Catholic relatives? Apparently none of them taught you the Catholic faith.
And then you wrote this stunning claim: “Catholics like to deny it in order to get Evangelicals not to bother them, but it is what it is.”
No, we just deny what is falsely said about us. WE DO NOT DENY THE WORK OF CHRIST.
I was raised Catholic - and I know the truth. I went to Catholic school - and know the truth. I have Catholic relatives - and learned a long time ago I don’t rely on them for the proper understanding of the faith.
And my problem with the “Sacraments” is that they aren’t Biblical and are in direct contradiction with the plain meaning of scripture read alone without the aid of countless traditions compounded on each other.
Speaking of a ‘Cloud of Witnesses”. One wonders how it is possible that Mary or some Saint can hear our prayers, when you have more than a billion Catholics across the world praying to the same Saint or Mary at the same time all across the world.
This means that being in this “cloud of witnesses”, gives the individual human soul the same qualities of God: Omnipresence and omniscience. Of course, it’s possible that Heaven exists outside of any sense of time, so presumably when I die, I could enter heaven at the same “time” as someone who died a thousand years before me did. Nevertheless, they’d still be offly busy.
I wouldn’t dream of arguing with any of what you say. St. Paul speaks eloquently of the heart’s condition. But the heart’s state—the soul’s state, even more accurately—is so integral a part of good works that I neglected to add it. It’s like separating the tree from the branches.
But to your last—distasteful and humbling as it is, the Church has taught (for 2000-odd years) that Penance/Confession is a sacarament instituted by Christ. “Whose sins ye shall forgive they shall be forgiven, whose . . .retained . . . retained.” But even here, no one’s going to be kept out of heaven because he’s failed to confess his sins to a priest (evil tho that priest may be). Penance, in a purely psychological sense, is a means of making the penitent aware of his sins, uneager to have to confess it again. It aims to assure in the penitent a firm purpose of amendment (the resolve not to commit that sin again). Somehow, admitting your sin(s) to God without having to humble yourself by actually admitting them to a priest is so much easier that the penitent tends to forget that he’s promised not to commit that sin again. It’s far from a barrier between you and God; it’s a door that assures that you mean what you say. It’s not a New Year’s resolution.
Thanks for the ping to a good article, and thanks for your post #6.
Another thing I find disturbing is this phenomena of Protestants essentially treating Catholicism on an equal level. For REAL Southern Baptist types, such as myself, the issue has never been about character. Bishop Fulton Sheen came off pretty good. Michael Voris of today, a conservative Catholic, is definitely a good guy. The PROBLEM is in dangerous theology that denies the work of Christ, and joins His good works with our own or with some Saint or Mary to whom they expect us to go through in order to get to Christ. Therefore, this whole “He’s one of us” and this admission that this particular individual was judging Catholicsm by some Catholics reveals the overall vapidity of his thinking process.The New Anti-Catholicism: Occupy the Vatican
But the new anti-Catholicism does not adopt the posture of a humble and teachable critic seeking to engage the Church on matters over which reasonable citizens from differing theological and secular moral traditions disagree. Rather, it seeks to employ the coercive power of the state to force the Church’s institutions to violate the Church’s own moral theology, and thus compromise, and make less accessible, the Church’s mission of charity and hope.
Sorry to jump in here. You’re right on so muc of this. The big difference between what the just about all the protestant sects call “church” or church service and what Catholics deliberately call “Mass” is the fact that no protestant sect actually believes in the notion of Transubstantiation, the changing of water and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. That’s why we use priests. The rest of the service, whatever it is, can be led or minitered by anyone. But Catholics believe that only priests are capable of performing the central rite of Catholicism. Otherwise, “church” is a gathering in His Name.
What is your Church’s position on the Obama mandate about contraception and abortion?
Is your pastor speaking out about it?
Which one of your church leaders is saying that the President is trampling on religious freedom?
Has any of your church leaders agreed to stand with the Catholic church in defense of life and religious freedom?
“False. A Christian may attend a church, but belongs to the Church. Learn.”
You aren’t understanding. I said each individual Christian is a part of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ IS the Church.
Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
And as for the Priesthood. The Priest-system cannot be found in the NT, but only in the traditions men have put together to establish a Priest-system, based on obscure scriptures like the one stating that a leader of a group of Christians must be a “husband to one wife”, which are then interpreted to mean that a Priest ought not be married since they are married to the Church.
“We don’t ignore them. Christ was visible. The Apostles He sent were visible. The “rituals” He gave us - like Baptism - are visible. What I can’t get over is how STUPID some Protestants are to not realize that Christ sent a visible Church not some sort of invisible, intangible, ritualess, imagel poor, made up, phony, baloney Protestant (yet somehow non-existent) sect.”
But yet, we have these words from Christ Himself on the matter:
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Obviously, Christ wasn’t visible EVERYWHERE, and there would come a time when Christ would NO LONGER be visible. And yet, blessed are they who have NOT SEEN, AND YET HAVE BELIEVED.
To have Christ is not dependent on what has been seen or not seen, therefore.
I’ll hit you with this scripture again:
John 4:19-24
King James Version (KJV)
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If God is a Spirit, and God is not seen, what does it mean to worship God “in spirit and in truth?” It can only mean that true worship is also unseen. It isn’t in the physical motions, but in the heart of the individual, which no man sees except for God.
I’m in Texan and a Southern Baptist. What do YOU think our position is on Obama, the mandate that he is forcing upon folks, and abortion?
I wasn't using the number of Catholics to argue about its "rightness" only to point out to Mr. REAL Southern Baptist, that he's got a mouth the size of bass and the body of a minnow.
The very nature of religion means yours is the "right one" because, if you believed that some other religion was the "right one" you'd switch so that you now believe in the "right one".
I'm a Catholic and I believe that I've got the "right one" but apollo thinks that his being a REAL Southern Baptist makes his religion "more equal" and I don't care what he believes.
It aggrevates me that ignorant people think that their religion is better.
When it comes to that large number of mooselimbs, that worship a religion/political/governmental movement, theirs is a gutter religion, not a REAL religion.
Any religion that tells you the route to allah is having your baby with a bomb belt, killing other chilrun, it is not a true religion.
See my tag line.
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